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Whilst i'm certain that Cummings broke the guidelines that he himself had been instrumental in developing, especially around government messaging, and which many thousands of people would've loved to have done to help their loved ones but didn't, sometimes at great emotional cost - this latter point needs to be emphasised now, and in this respect:
Anyone quoting Cummings' action as an excuse for not following current or future guidelines remains equally culpable. To be clear: we're not doing this for the government, we're following the guidelines in order to help prevent the spread of a deadly disease that can still take any of us but more particularly those in the more vulnerable groups
Quoting Cummings isn't going to change that, and the media need to stop banging on about the government's messaging having been undermined. It's not for the bloody government, so stop further undermining it by repeating it as if it is
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 08:00 - May 28 by TalkingSutty
God, are you still harping on about Cummings? Having weighed everything up and the full circumstances he obviously bent or even broke the rules in some people’s eyes but he isn’t the only one to do that, he didn’t visit a Muslim funeral like the Labour MP. Both parents contracted COVID, an autistic 4 yr old child who obviously can’t just be left with anybody. He did right to get somewhere that could accommodate those circumstances when you look at what he has to contend with when it comes to the gutter press and media.
The real problem are the morons who are ignoring social distance, packing out beaches and holding parties every weekend...and there have been thousands of those in Greater Manchester alone. The press and the media are after their pound of flesh when it comes to Cummins, he masterminded the fantastic Conservative landslide victory at the recent General Election, even Labour voters jumped on board with that one. He was also very instrumental in seeing that the will of the people was followed through and helped to ensure that we exited the EU at the end of January. So yes people can point the finger at him and question his eyesight but let’s have it right, he’s done a fantastic job over the last 6 months or so.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 8:01]
You mean that Muslim funeral across the road from the football ground that had about 100 people congregated earlier in the week, which still had people coming or going adding to the mix throughout the day? The funny thing is that the next day a sign has been placed in probably the same place as the centre of the congregation warning about social distancing.You could not make it up! Or my next door neighbour who had a party on Monday night? Everyone could probably cite many examples that they know personally.
Whetever people's opinions are about the rights and wrongs of what Cummings has done there is a witch hunt against him by the 'blob'. They hate him. As you rightly point out he mastermined a landslide victory which saw the destruction of the red wall, something never thought possible, even by the most die hard Conservatives. The main thing they hate him for is Brexit. When Johnson was incapacitated civil servants were arranging an extension with the EU which they were trying to push through. As soon as Cummings knew about it he put it to a stop. There are large sections of society who just cannot let go and will do anything to stop it, especially trying to destroy Cummings. They will hate it even more that Cummings has managed to keep his position.
Some light reading (although many will quickly jump on the source and instantly discredit it)
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 08:00 - May 28 by TalkingSutty
God, are you still harping on about Cummings? Having weighed everything up and the full circumstances he obviously bent or even broke the rules in some people’s eyes but he isn’t the only one to do that, he didn’t visit a Muslim funeral like the Labour MP. Both parents contracted COVID, an autistic 4 yr old child who obviously can’t just be left with anybody. He did right to get somewhere that could accommodate those circumstances when you look at what he has to contend with when it comes to the gutter press and media.
The real problem are the morons who are ignoring social distance, packing out beaches and holding parties every weekend...and there have been thousands of those in Greater Manchester alone. The press and the media are after their pound of flesh when it comes to Cummins, he masterminded the fantastic Conservative landslide victory at the recent General Election, even Labour voters jumped on board with that one. He was also very instrumental in seeing that the will of the people was followed through and helped to ensure that we exited the EU at the end of January. So yes people can point the finger at him and question his eyesight but let’s have it right, he’s done a fantastic job over the last 6 months or so.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 8:01]
It's not the first time that Tahir Ali MP has been mentioned in this thread. I think one key issue about Tahir Ali is that he recognised his actions which, while looking to make a contribution to the rules around attendance at funerals which were and still are causing a great deal of upset across the whole of society, were misguided and issued an unreserved apology.
One issue the Stephen Kinnock and Tahir Ali cases both raise is the politicising of police forces across the country. It is not the job of the police to assign 'guilt' (if indeed any existed) and name and shame politicians. There are due processes for that in Parliament and in the judicial system - it should not be left to the personal political preferences of individual senior police officers.
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:17 - May 28 with 1544 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:07 - May 28 by smaclad1
It's not the first time that Tahir Ali MP has been mentioned in this thread. I think one key issue about Tahir Ali is that he recognised his actions which, while looking to make a contribution to the rules around attendance at funerals which were and still are causing a great deal of upset across the whole of society, were misguided and issued an unreserved apology.
One issue the Stephen Kinnock and Tahir Ali cases both raise is the politicising of police forces across the country. It is not the job of the police to assign 'guilt' (if indeed any existed) and name and shame politicians. There are due processes for that in Parliament and in the judicial system - it should not be left to the personal political preferences of individual senior police officers.
And none of the 'political lockdown breakers' have been charged by the police, so that is consistency of approach by the police.
The issue with Tahir Ali is that he was part of a group of 100, so the likelihood of spreading the disesase is greater than what Kinnock, Cummings, Jenrick etc did.
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:18 - May 28 with 1543 views
DC 'breaking' lockdown rules gives ammo to the corona hoax conspiracy theorists. They can say look he didn't adhere to the lockdown and he wrote the guidelines. Perhaps he knows 'the truth'.
'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:04 - May 28 by isitme
You mean that Muslim funeral across the road from the football ground that had about 100 people congregated earlier in the week, which still had people coming or going adding to the mix throughout the day? The funny thing is that the next day a sign has been placed in probably the same place as the centre of the congregation warning about social distancing.You could not make it up! Or my next door neighbour who had a party on Monday night? Everyone could probably cite many examples that they know personally.
Whetever people's opinions are about the rights and wrongs of what Cummings has done there is a witch hunt against him by the 'blob'. They hate him. As you rightly point out he mastermined a landslide victory which saw the destruction of the red wall, something never thought possible, even by the most die hard Conservatives. The main thing they hate him for is Brexit. When Johnson was incapacitated civil servants were arranging an extension with the EU which they were trying to push through. As soon as Cummings knew about it he put it to a stop. There are large sections of society who just cannot let go and will do anything to stop it, especially trying to destroy Cummings. They will hate it even more that Cummings has managed to keep his position.
Some light reading (although many will quickly jump on the source and instantly discredit it)
Some of the most vociferous criticism has come from very pro Brexit and Conservative institutions. The Daily Mail and The Sun have been extremely critical. The Daily Telegraph has also ran critical stories.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:18 - May 28 by BigDaveMyCock
Some of the most vociferous criticism has come from very pro Brexit and Conservative institutions. The Daily Mail and The Sun have been extremely critical. The Daily Telegraph has also ran critical stories.
Absolutely and no matter what position someone is on the policitcal spectrum they have the right to be annoyed by lockdown breakers, no matter whether their political allegences align. They are angry at his actions, rather than the person.
The thing that TalkingSutty pointed out is the hate for the person by many sections in society, he is seen as a nemisis to what they believe in. I suspect many thought that they had him this time and will be even more annoyed that he has retained his position. This will also include a number of Conservative supporters, especially remainers who do not like the power and influence that he has. If he has his way many departments within the civil service will be gutted and they will have to work differently which they will not like.
What I do not understand is why it has taken so long to reveal Cummings lockdown breaking? With the other political breachers that was announced pretty much immediately afterwards.
For me, as has been the case consistently in the other thread, the issue isn’t about who the bloke is or what he’s done in the past, but the situation. The media, personal and political allegiances are having an effect, naturally, but rarely in a positive way when it comes to assessing that situation.
It’s been damaging to the entire country from the start, the responses within that thread illustrate exactly that as all were pretty unanimous in what should happen. The comparisons, the justifications, the ‘they did this so he can do that’ culture does nobody any favours and we know it. I don’t know as much as others about his work, he could be some sort of genius (you know, the type of genius who goes for a drive to check his eyesight is ok), but it’s been illustrated that his actions and the subsequent reactions from some of those making crucial decisions on behalf of us all have been pretty laughable.
What has been made abundantly clear is that one man, quite bizarrely, is obviously absolutely vital to the running of this country at the moment. Let’s hope that if that’s the case, that individual has the ability to put aside the problems he created and assist in the way out of this. We can only judge that ability on the results so far and those in the future.
One thing is definitely true which has been touched upon today, we can only play our own parts and do our best.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:17 - May 28 by isitme
And none of the 'political lockdown breakers' have been charged by the police, so that is consistency of approach by the police.
The issue with Tahir Ali is that he was part of a group of 100, so the likelihood of spreading the disesase is greater than what Kinnock, Cummings, Jenrick etc did.
It was reported as a group of 'up to 100' . When the police, in response to calls concerning a large group, turned up they found 15 people socially distanced into family groups and took no action.
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:51 - May 28 with 1463 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:27 - May 28 by isitme
Absolutely and no matter what position someone is on the policitcal spectrum they have the right to be annoyed by lockdown breakers, no matter whether their political allegences align. They are angry at his actions, rather than the person.
The thing that TalkingSutty pointed out is the hate for the person by many sections in society, he is seen as a nemisis to what they believe in. I suspect many thought that they had him this time and will be even more annoyed that he has retained his position. This will also include a number of Conservative supporters, especially remainers who do not like the power and influence that he has. If he has his way many departments within the civil service will be gutted and they will have to work differently which they will not like.
What I do not understand is why it has taken so long to reveal Cummings lockdown breaking? With the other political breachers that was announced pretty much immediately afterwards.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 9:34]
"If he has his way many departments within the civil service will be gutted and they will have to work differently which they will not like."
And i believe this is the reason he's retained his position, not just through any sense of misplaced loyalty. In the period when we're emerging out of this crisis, the government machine (in it's widest sense) will have to be able to respond to the challenges like never before. A massive shake-up was due anyway, and Cummings was the prime mover in taking this forward, allowing Boris Johnson the leverage to push the government agenda without the previous drag on it by a Whitehall still in mid-20th century mode
Do i think he should've resigned/been sacked? Yes, actually, but it's already been said that he probably wouldn't have remained out of the picture permanently, and i'd personally rather not see him hanging around Downing Street with a grin on his face, for a good while at least
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:49 - May 28 by smaclad1
It was reported as a group of 'up to 100' . When the police, in response to calls concerning a large group, turned up they found 15 people socially distanced into family groups and took no action.
And quite rightly so on the situation they observed at the time. But who is to say that before the police arrived he was not part of a group of 'up to 100' of which the vast majority had dispersed by the time the police arrived? This would appear similar to what I witnessed the other day in Denehurst Park - a large group congregating, with lots of coming and goings, which then fizzled out.
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:56 - May 28 with 1439 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:27 - May 28 by isitme
Absolutely and no matter what position someone is on the policitcal spectrum they have the right to be annoyed by lockdown breakers, no matter whether their political allegences align. They are angry at his actions, rather than the person.
The thing that TalkingSutty pointed out is the hate for the person by many sections in society, he is seen as a nemisis to what they believe in. I suspect many thought that they had him this time and will be even more annoyed that he has retained his position. This will also include a number of Conservative supporters, especially remainers who do not like the power and influence that he has. If he has his way many departments within the civil service will be gutted and they will have to work differently which they will not like.
What I do not understand is why it has taken so long to reveal Cummings lockdown breaking? With the other political breachers that was announced pretty much immediately afterwards.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 9:34]
But those institutions are also demanding that he resign or that Boris sack him. Stephen Barclay, head of the ERG, and probably the most ardent Brexit MP has declared that Boris should sack him. It’s not the ‘blob’ as you refer to. If it is then the blob contains diehard Brexiters and conservatives.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 09:56 - May 28 by BigDaveMyCock
But those institutions are also demanding that he resign or that Boris sack him. Stephen Barclay, head of the ERG, and probably the most ardent Brexit MP has declared that Boris should sack him. It’s not the ‘blob’ as you refer to. If it is then the blob contains diehard Brexiters and conservatives.
There are two different parties at play here:
1. The so called 'blob' (not my term by the way) who hate Cummings for all the things I have articulated earlier. This group will also include Conservatives who despise Cummings and some diehard remainer Conservatives.
2. Others such as Barclay, Conservative leaning newspapers etc who are against his actions, rather than him per se. Some Conservitive MPs in marginal seats maybe fearful that if they do not speak out against him that they will lose their seats at the next election.
For the first group this is as much ideological, as actions based. The actions of Cummings were the vehicle that they saught to lead to the demise of their nemisis. The second group want action for his actions, rather than it being Cummings. The first group is much larger than the second because they both hate and fear him.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 10:30]
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 10:53 - May 28 with 1367 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 08:00 - May 28 by TalkingSutty
God, are you still harping on about Cummings? Having weighed everything up and the full circumstances he obviously bent or even broke the rules in some people’s eyes but he isn’t the only one to do that, he didn’t visit a Muslim funeral like the Labour MP. Both parents contracted COVID, an autistic 4 yr old child who obviously can’t just be left with anybody. He did right to get somewhere that could accommodate those circumstances when you look at what he has to contend with when it comes to the gutter press and media.
The real problem are the morons who are ignoring social distance, packing out beaches and holding parties every weekend...and there have been thousands of those in Greater Manchester alone. The press and the media are after their pound of flesh when it comes to Cummins, he masterminded the fantastic Conservative landslide victory at the recent General Election, even Labour voters jumped on board with that one. He was also very instrumental in seeing that the will of the people was followed through and helped to ensure that we exited the EU at the end of January. So yes people can point the finger at him and question his eyesight but let’s have it right, he’s done a fantastic job over the last 6 months or so.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 8:01]
But there's the problem - clearly Boris Johnson has decided to protect Mr Cummings rather than stand up for all of us who, as a nation united in common defence, abide by the full intent of the guidance, because he is so dependent on him for election success. As Michael Portillo (ardent Brexiteer and Boris fan) said yesterday on Radio 4s PM - Boris is a bystander, watching on as others make decisions he later criticises. Boris Johnson is our elected Prime Minister who leads the nation, Mr Cummings is an un-elected adviser (however prescient) - seem to recall we spent 3 years voting to leave institutions where such un-elected apparatchiks disdainfully rule over us.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 08:00 - May 28 by TalkingSutty
God, are you still harping on about Cummings? Having weighed everything up and the full circumstances he obviously bent or even broke the rules in some people’s eyes but he isn’t the only one to do that, he didn’t visit a Muslim funeral like the Labour MP. Both parents contracted COVID, an autistic 4 yr old child who obviously can’t just be left with anybody. He did right to get somewhere that could accommodate those circumstances when you look at what he has to contend with when it comes to the gutter press and media.
The real problem are the morons who are ignoring social distance, packing out beaches and holding parties every weekend...and there have been thousands of those in Greater Manchester alone. The press and the media are after their pound of flesh when it comes to Cummins, he masterminded the fantastic Conservative landslide victory at the recent General Election, even Labour voters jumped on board with that one. He was also very instrumental in seeing that the will of the people was followed through and helped to ensure that we exited the EU at the end of January. So yes people can point the finger at him and question his eyesight but let’s have it right, he’s done a fantastic job over the last 6 months or so.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 8:01]
"So yes people can point the finger at him and question his eyesight but let’s have it right, he’s done a fantastic job over the last 6 months or so"
If he had even the minutest input (which one would assume to be an understatement) in the decision to not introduce lockdown sooner, or be complicit in failing to realise track and trace was the only thing which would give us a fighting chance to combat the virus until a vaccine was found and so do something about that sooner too, then he can never be considered to have done a fantastic job in my eyes. TVOS gave out a C- the other day for summat. It's a D- for Cummings from me.
The lack of initial testing capacity was down to Public Health England. Rather than allowing other labs to help out with testing they preferred to wait until 'their labs' could increase capacity hence the reason why testing capacity was so low, for so long. This compares badly with countries such as Germany with less centralised health systems where they utilised all available testing capacity.
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 12:04 - May 28 with 1270 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 11:38 - May 28 by isitme
The lack of initial testing capacity was down to Public Health England. Rather than allowing other labs to help out with testing they preferred to wait until 'their labs' could increase capacity hence the reason why testing capacity was so low, for so long. This compares badly with countries such as Germany with less centralised health systems where they utilised all available testing capacity.
This is correct, and i referred to it back in late March/early April
PHE, although independent of government, is also part of the wider 'machine' that i referred to earlier today that needs an overhaul due to lack of 21st century agility and vested interests. It was the jobsworths at the head of PHE who initially refused to allow expanded testing in private labs without their approval
It really gets my goat when the media and opposition politicians bang on about the failure to introduce greater testing much earlier when they know (or should do) that there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so, and the government was hindered in doing so by PHE until it was taken out of their hands
It's also no argument to say that well, it was the Tories who set up PHE as an independent body, any more than it would be fair to criticise the Labour government for setting up the Bank of England as an independent body to set interest rates in the late 90s if they then proceeded to set rates which harmed the economy
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 12:04 - May 28 by D_Alien
This is correct, and i referred to it back in late March/early April
PHE, although independent of government, is also part of the wider 'machine' that i referred to earlier today that needs an overhaul due to lack of 21st century agility and vested interests. It was the jobsworths at the head of PHE who initially refused to allow expanded testing in private labs without their approval
It really gets my goat when the media and opposition politicians bang on about the failure to introduce greater testing much earlier when they know (or should do) that there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so, and the government was hindered in doing so by PHE until it was taken out of their hands
It's also no argument to say that well, it was the Tories who set up PHE as an independent body, any more than it would be fair to criticise the Labour government for setting up the Bank of England as an independent body to set interest rates in the late 90s if they then proceeded to set rates which harmed the economy
[Post edited 28 May 2020 12:09]
1 million percent this.
But they are part of 'the blob' and need to justify/protect their own existence. Heaven forbid someone else could perform a service that they do, especially one in the private sector.
[Post edited 28 May 2020 12:10]
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Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 14:24 - May 28 with 1144 views
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 12:04 - May 28 by D_Alien
This is correct, and i referred to it back in late March/early April
PHE, although independent of government, is also part of the wider 'machine' that i referred to earlier today that needs an overhaul due to lack of 21st century agility and vested interests. It was the jobsworths at the head of PHE who initially refused to allow expanded testing in private labs without their approval
It really gets my goat when the media and opposition politicians bang on about the failure to introduce greater testing much earlier when they know (or should do) that there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so, and the government was hindered in doing so by PHE until it was taken out of their hands
It's also no argument to say that well, it was the Tories who set up PHE as an independent body, any more than it would be fair to criticise the Labour government for setting up the Bank of England as an independent body to set interest rates in the late 90s if they then proceeded to set rates which harmed the economy
[Post edited 28 May 2020 12:09]
A number of institutions may well have fallen short but if as you say 'there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so' surely that in the end is the responsibility of Govt.; the initial decision to allocate testing 'in their (PHE) hands' - surely that is the responsibility of Govt. Did you see the ex Danish Prime Minister on Question Time recently, simply and openly apologising for her responsibility in Denmark's failure to make sufficient preparations for the pandemic - that sort of clear, courageous, honesty is what's disappeared up the new world of prevarication, obfuscation, deceit and shame.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 14:32 - May 28 by tony_roch975
A number of institutions may well have fallen short but if as you say 'there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so' surely that in the end is the responsibility of Govt.; the initial decision to allocate testing 'in their (PHE) hands' - surely that is the responsibility of Govt. Did you see the ex Danish Prime Minister on Question Time recently, simply and openly apologising for her responsibility in Denmark's failure to make sufficient preparations for the pandemic - that sort of clear, courageous, honesty is what's disappeared up the new world of prevarication, obfuscation, deceit and shame.
Part of being in or supporting one of the political cults is not admitting any mistake and not giving a direct unqualified apology. For example when Trump tweeted Covfefe it was clearly a typo. Most folk would have just said admitted the mistake. Then there was Priti's non apology, apologising on the healthcare workers behalf for them having the audacity to complain about PPE. I expect apologies and admitting errors are thought of a signs of weakness.
'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 16:06 - May 28 by James1980
Part of being in or supporting one of the political cults is not admitting any mistake and not giving a direct unqualified apology. For example when Trump tweeted Covfefe it was clearly a typo. Most folk would have just said admitted the mistake. Then there was Priti's non apology, apologising on the healthcare workers behalf for them having the audacity to complain about PPE. I expect apologies and admitting errors are thought of a signs of weakness.
I'm sure that's the 'modern' rationale James but what a pity we've lost that past sense of honour when leaders accepted responsibility for things done on their behalf, admitted the mistakes of being human and 'fell on their sword' - Churchill is a prime example; today's leaders seem such petty, weak, inferior creatures in comparison. I know it's an old fashioned value, but not all 'progress' is good.
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 14:32 - May 28 by tony_roch975
A number of institutions may well have fallen short but if as you say 'there simply wasn't the early capacity to do so' surely that in the end is the responsibility of Govt.; the initial decision to allocate testing 'in their (PHE) hands' - surely that is the responsibility of Govt. Did you see the ex Danish Prime Minister on Question Time recently, simply and openly apologising for her responsibility in Denmark's failure to make sufficient preparations for the pandemic - that sort of clear, courageous, honesty is what's disappeared up the new world of prevarication, obfuscation, deceit and shame.
Oh come on!!
Sometimes, it's disappointing to see arguments put forward that take no account of reality
Do you really expect any country to have excess (massive excess, in this case) testing capacity with publicly-owned labs, fully-staffed, sat idle at huge cost just waiting for a pandemic to arrive?
Sure, countries like Germany had much greater testing capacity, commensurate with their more extensive pharmaceuticals industry and no public body to act as a millstone around it's utilisation. All this is well-known, and if anything is an argument in favour of agile private enterprise versus publicly-owned inertia
The separation of PHE from governmental control was done to counter the oft-used accusation that the NHS was a 'political football'. The NHS, in it's primary role as a means of treating everyone regardless of ability to pay, is absolutely precious. The bureaucracy which surrounds it less so, and PHE was a prime example of this back in March, outwith the control of the government at that point
Should Dominic Cummins resign? on 16:37 - May 28 by D_Alien
Oh come on!!
Sometimes, it's disappointing to see arguments put forward that take no account of reality
Do you really expect any country to have excess (massive excess, in this case) testing capacity with publicly-owned labs, fully-staffed, sat idle at huge cost just waiting for a pandemic to arrive?
Sure, countries like Germany had much greater testing capacity, commensurate with their more extensive pharmaceuticals industry and no public body to act as a millstone around it's utilisation. All this is well-known, and if anything is an argument in favour of agile private enterprise versus publicly-owned inertia
The separation of PHE from governmental control was done to counter the oft-used accusation that the NHS was a 'political football'. The NHS, in it's primary role as a means of treating everyone regardless of ability to pay, is absolutely precious. The bureaucracy which surrounds it less so, and PHE was a prime example of this back in March, outwith the control of the government at that point
Just read in the guardian that up to 350’000 tests carried out have not been matched to patients records , so that’s a lot of people that needed testing, but effectively haven’t been! Not just NHS England that are inefficient
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