| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off 00:49 - Jul 4 with 18600 views | Jack123 |
[Post edited 4 Jul 2020 0:52]
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 13:25 - Jul 6 with 1617 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 21:10 - Jul 5 by Kerouac |
It is an obvious point, so you'll need it spelling out I suppose.
None of you lefties would be for taking down those Mosques. If a bunch of Jews protested outside the Al Aqsa Mosque or a bunch of Orthodox Christians outside the Blue Mosque, you would no doubt label them extremists...you may deny this but we all know you certainly wouldn't support their cause (Most of the Mosques ever built would be in trouble).
This is because the Left couldn't give a single shite about the principle of one people imposing their culture over another's (see the Soviet Union for evidence as well as every Islamic state in the World), they couldn't give a single shite about one people building on another people's sacred ground.
The only reason why you get behind people complaining about Mount Rushmore, or want to tear down statues of British people involved in the British Empire (I've never heard any of you getting your knickers in a twist about the Islamic empire or the Soviet empire) is because;
1 - You hate America
2 - You hate Britain
Why?
Because these countries have flown the flag for Liberal free trade and have unashamedly promoted Capitalism as a virtuous system around the World.
It is sheer bitterness from the Left because Socialism has been shown to be a failure over and over again.
The World is so much better today, the average global citizen is better off, because of Capitalism and because of the enormous contribution made by the English speaking people's of the World and that really, really, f*cks you off.
History of the Al Aqsa Mosque...
https://emetnews.org/analysis/myth_of_al_aqsa_mosque.php [Post edited 5 Jul 2020 21:23]
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I’m always struck by the sheer lack of knowledge behind your ranting.
Firstly no one on here has said Mount Rushmore should be torn down. No one.
I pointed out it was a controversial site in much the same way as a Mosque being built on Stonehenge or St Paul’s would be controversial. Rushmore was built on a sacred site. You’ve then proved my point by ranting about Mosques (imagine my shock).
On to some of your detailed bollox. The Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is constantly the source of contention. It’s one of the key pillars in all Israel / Palestinian peace talks. So it’s absolutely correctly described as ‘controversial’.
Secondly, the Blue Mosque was built as a mosque. There wasn’t a church there before it. The most opposition to the Blue Mosque when it was built was from Muslims.
The wider point is right though - many mosques have been built on the site of former churches - it’s deliberately controversial - a sigh of conquest. The same is the case the other way round - many churches have been built in the site of former mosques. That’s also deliberately controversial.
All these things are reinforcing the point I made.
On statues. I don’t want to tear down any statues particularly. There is the odd one that I think should be moved to a museum (Colston is a good example - the man was responsible for mass murder and keeping a statue to him is tantamount to keeping a statue up of Hitler in a city with a sizeable Jewish population. Stuff like Churchill, anelso etc are not going to be torn down. Every so often the Churchill one is attacked - it has been by many different protestors over the years, largely because he was, amongst all his good stuff, also deeply flawed with unpleasant attitudes, not only to other recaps, but also to the Welsh as you may recall. So what. He’s graffitied, it’s washed off. It’s called protest.
But don’t pretend statues aren’t an issue around the world. The Americans don’t have statues of George III up, as they pulled them down during Independence. Melted them and used them for ammunition against the British. There aren’t statues of any Nazis up in Germany. There are barely any statues of Stalin left standing (the Russians pulled almost all of them down). The US troops pulled down statues in Iraq (you probably cheered). One of the reasons no one here complains about statues to communists is that there aren’t any. Same with Islamic statues...(duh)
With few exceptions, mostly from the Welsh Nat crowd, no one on here ‘hates’ Britain. I haven’t seen anyone hate the US (strongly dislike the president and some of his acolytes - that’s different).
I am certainly in favour of capitalism. Economic policy is not a liberal or non liberal position. It’s perfectly possible to agree with treating people properly, hating racism and discrimination of all types and to be a capitalist. Capitalism though needs to be fettered, otherwise most people will end up with a sh*tty life and no basic provision of education and health.
What seems, in my opinion to be harder, is to be a frothing bigot and to be anything other than pig ignorant on almost every topic. Maybe that’s just from the evidence on this site though.
As an aside, your link is laughable hate speech. The fact you link to to this sort of stuff so readily shows you to be so far down the sewer as to be not worth the time of day. |  | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:28 - Jul 6 with 1569 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 23:17 - Jul 5 by Glossolalia |
History isn't there to simply cherry-pick injustices that chime with whichever social justice narrative is at the forefront currently. I don't mean to dismiss the issue of racism, not at all, but to look at the past through today's lens is no way going to truly bring us together. To stoke past flames that no one alive is responsible for is causing harm.
Don't people realise most history reads like a horror story? It's there to be learnt from, not selectively eradicated. Educate to the full extent - every grimy detail, lest we forget and become more likely to repeat our mistakes. It's like 1984, honestly. If no one remembers it happened it didn't happen, as all proof has been been destroyed. Scary idea! [Post edited 5 Jul 2020 23:20]
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Au contraire. We are incredibly fortunate to have so many foremost experts on the history of the Sioux tribe posting on a Swansea City football forum. We can be educated so much by the insightful knowledge gained from them googling the subject five minutes ago. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:37 - Jul 6 with 1560 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:28 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
Au contraire. We are incredibly fortunate to have so many foremost experts on the history of the Sioux tribe posting on a Swansea City football forum. We can be educated so much by the insightful knowledge gained from them googling the subject five minutes ago. |
Nope-was interested in this when younger. Read some books on it and more recently a documentary on the events around Little Big Horn. Lack of misspent youth | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:52 - Jul 6 with 1541 views | Kerouac |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 13:25 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
I’m always struck by the sheer lack of knowledge behind your ranting.
Firstly no one on here has said Mount Rushmore should be torn down. No one.
I pointed out it was a controversial site in much the same way as a Mosque being built on Stonehenge or St Paul’s would be controversial. Rushmore was built on a sacred site. You’ve then proved my point by ranting about Mosques (imagine my shock).
On to some of your detailed bollox. The Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem is constantly the source of contention. It’s one of the key pillars in all Israel / Palestinian peace talks. So it’s absolutely correctly described as ‘controversial’.
Secondly, the Blue Mosque was built as a mosque. There wasn’t a church there before it. The most opposition to the Blue Mosque when it was built was from Muslims.
The wider point is right though - many mosques have been built on the site of former churches - it’s deliberately controversial - a sigh of conquest. The same is the case the other way round - many churches have been built in the site of former mosques. That’s also deliberately controversial.
All these things are reinforcing the point I made.
On statues. I don’t want to tear down any statues particularly. There is the odd one that I think should be moved to a museum (Colston is a good example - the man was responsible for mass murder and keeping a statue to him is tantamount to keeping a statue up of Hitler in a city with a sizeable Jewish population. Stuff like Churchill, anelso etc are not going to be torn down. Every so often the Churchill one is attacked - it has been by many different protestors over the years, largely because he was, amongst all his good stuff, also deeply flawed with unpleasant attitudes, not only to other recaps, but also to the Welsh as you may recall. So what. He’s graffitied, it’s washed off. It’s called protest.
But don’t pretend statues aren’t an issue around the world. The Americans don’t have statues of George III up, as they pulled them down during Independence. Melted them and used them for ammunition against the British. There aren’t statues of any Nazis up in Germany. There are barely any statues of Stalin left standing (the Russians pulled almost all of them down). The US troops pulled down statues in Iraq (you probably cheered). One of the reasons no one here complains about statues to communists is that there aren’t any. Same with Islamic statues...(duh)
With few exceptions, mostly from the Welsh Nat crowd, no one on here ‘hates’ Britain. I haven’t seen anyone hate the US (strongly dislike the president and some of his acolytes - that’s different).
I am certainly in favour of capitalism. Economic policy is not a liberal or non liberal position. It’s perfectly possible to agree with treating people properly, hating racism and discrimination of all types and to be a capitalist. Capitalism though needs to be fettered, otherwise most people will end up with a sh*tty life and no basic provision of education and health.
What seems, in my opinion to be harder, is to be a frothing bigot and to be anything other than pig ignorant on almost every topic. Maybe that’s just from the evidence on this site though.
As an aside, your link is laughable hate speech. The fact you link to to this sort of stuff so readily shows you to be so far down the sewer as to be not worth the time of day. |
Firstly, the Al Aqsa Mosque controversy...
If we transposed it over the Mt. Rushmore "controversy" to contrast and compare what would we see?
Imagine the Sioux nation had militarily succeeded in taking back their lands and had the decency to allow the Americans to continue to visit Mt. Rushmore and pay their respects to the Presidents the monument celebrates, the Sioux allowed this and took responsibility for the upkeep of Mt. Rushmore...
...but the Americans weren't at all happy with this arrangement and continued to protest constantly, spreading rumours that the Sioux were going to attack Rushmore and calling for holy war on the Sioux on a regular basis...periodically murdering Sioux as a consequence, and that News report was covering the story of the Americans protesting because the Sioux were planning on repairing Jefferson's nose (which was about to fall off).
Imagine that, because that is the story of the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.
Yet the political Left of this country could not give a single shite about the Jews and what they have had to put up with, they actually support the 'Palestinians' who are protesting.
Google it, you will find plenty of outraged lefties angry at how Israel deal with the issue.
It is sheer hypocrisy, there are no principles involved.
Secondly.
The point I was making is that your example of building a mosque on a Christian site is not that it was not controversial at the time. Of course it was, it was meant to cause offence. Just that it is no longer controversial because the Christians have largely let it go. There is not a movement to put up plaques telling the history or to get the Islamic world to apologise, or to protest when an Islamic leader visits.
You can't change the status quo and attempt to 'change history' unless you are prepared to go to war and have your children die for that.
Thirdly.
The blue mosque was built on the site of the Great Palace of Constantinople, 'The Sacred Palace', and was positioned in front of (obscuring) the Hagia Sophia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Palace_of_Constantinople
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque
Do you think that was an accident?
Fourthly.
The argument I made supports my point (...and HighJack's, when he talked about the castles across Wales) not yours.
All historical misdeeds are not controversial in the West, just the misdeeds that Britain and America (and white skinned Europeans) are responsible for.
It is one sided and unprincipled. It is a political attack on our history and culture, an attack on us.
The reality is that the sins of white skinned Europeans are no worse (or better) than any other people on the planet.
There is no need for our children to grow up feeling guilty and subconsciously hating themselves for being descended from our ancestors, they were no better or worse morally than anyone else, but they did achieve a great deal and are responsible for creating the fortunate position that we are in now...as we busily try to tear it all down at the behest of some bitter losers who believe that if only they could gain control they would create heaven on Earth, a Socialist utopia. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:01 - Jul 6 with 1535 views | Darran |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:37 - Jul 6 by Professor |
Nope-was interested in this when younger. Read some books on it and more recently a documentary on the events around Little Big Horn. Lack of misspent youth |
My great great grandfather was killed at the Battle of Little Big Horn. |  |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:05 - Jul 6 with 1531 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:52 - Jul 6 by Kerouac |
Firstly, the Al Aqsa Mosque controversy...
If we transposed it over the Mt. Rushmore "controversy" to contrast and compare what would we see?
Imagine the Sioux nation had militarily succeeded in taking back their lands and had the decency to allow the Americans to continue to visit Mt. Rushmore and pay their respects to the Presidents the monument celebrates, the Sioux allowed this and took responsibility for the upkeep of Mt. Rushmore...
...but the Americans weren't at all happy with this arrangement and continued to protest constantly, spreading rumours that the Sioux were going to attack Rushmore and calling for holy war on the Sioux on a regular basis...periodically murdering Sioux as a consequence, and that News report was covering the story of the Americans protesting because the Sioux were planning on repairing Jefferson's nose (which was about to fall off).
Imagine that, because that is the story of the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.
Yet the political Left of this country could not give a single shite about the Jews and what they have had to put up with, they actually support the 'Palestinians' who are protesting.
Google it, you will find plenty of outraged lefties angry at how Israel deal with the issue.
It is sheer hypocrisy, there are no principles involved.
Secondly.
The point I was making is that your example of building a mosque on a Christian site is not that it was not controversial at the time. Of course it was, it was meant to cause offence. Just that it is no longer controversial because the Christians have largely let it go. There is not a movement to put up plaques telling the history or to get the Islamic world to apologise, or to protest when an Islamic leader visits.
You can't change the status quo and attempt to 'change history' unless you are prepared to go to war and have your children die for that.
Thirdly.
The blue mosque was built on the site of the Great Palace of Constantinople, 'The Sacred Palace', and was positioned in front of (obscuring) the Hagia Sophia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Palace_of_Constantinople
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque
Do you think that was an accident?
Fourthly.
The argument I made supports my point (...and HighJack's, when he talked about the castles across Wales) not yours.
All historical misdeeds are not controversial in the West, just the misdeeds that Britain and America (and white skinned Europeans) are responsible for.
It is one sided and unprincipled. It is a political attack on our history and culture, an attack on us.
The reality is that the sins of white skinned Europeans are no worse (or better) than any other people on the planet.
There is no need for our children to grow up feeling guilty and subconsciously hating themselves for being descended from our ancestors, they were no better or worse morally than anyone else, but they did achieve a great deal and are responsible for creating the fortunate position that we are in now...as we busily try to tear it all down at the behest of some bitter losers who believe that if only they could gain control they would create heaven on Earth, a Socialist utopia. |
Holds no weight for me Kerouac-i certainly have a neutural view on Israel and Palestine. I support the right for Israel to exist as a state, but also the rights of the Palestinians. I do not support the actions of Hamas nor the rights to annex the West Bank.
I, unlike other academics, do not boycott Israel. Having been there its not a place I overly liked, but found interesting. It's so small with everything on top of each other. You can see how it all kicks off. Out of Friday prayers. Chuck a few rocks down to the Wailing Wall. IDS steams in and beat a few lads up. Both at fault. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:07 - Jul 6 with 1529 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:05 - Jul 6 by Professor |
Holds no weight for me Kerouac-i certainly have a neutural view on Israel and Palestine. I support the right for Israel to exist as a state, but also the rights of the Palestinians. I do not support the actions of Hamas nor the rights to annex the West Bank.
I, unlike other academics, do not boycott Israel. Having been there its not a place I overly liked, but found interesting. It's so small with everything on top of each other. You can see how it all kicks off. Out of Friday prayers. Chuck a few rocks down to the Wailing Wall. IDS steams in and beat a few lads up. Both at fault. |
That Ian Duncan Smith causes trouble everywhere he goes. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:09 - Jul 6 with 1525 views | Professor |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:07 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
That Ian Duncan Smith causes trouble everywhere he goes. |
Aye-bloody Tories eh! | | | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:22 - Jul 6 with 1507 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:28 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
Au contraire. We are incredibly fortunate to have so many foremost experts on the history of the Sioux tribe posting on a Swansea City football forum. We can be educated so much by the insightful knowledge gained from them googling the subject five minutes ago. |
What a shame you don’t investigate anything before giving your view.
Easier to criticise the BBC I suppose?
My knowledge of the Sioux or other native Americans is pretty tiny. Just enough to know why Mount Rushmore is controversial. And bits of other history as I’ve spent quite a bit of time in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado and been to or near the reservations and national parks etc over the years and like to find out stuff about the history of places I visit, go to the (almost always fabulous) visitor centres, buy books about the area and so on.
You should try it sometime. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:47 - Jul 6 with 1491 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 14:52 - Jul 6 by Kerouac |
Firstly, the Al Aqsa Mosque controversy...
If we transposed it over the Mt. Rushmore "controversy" to contrast and compare what would we see?
Imagine the Sioux nation had militarily succeeded in taking back their lands and had the decency to allow the Americans to continue to visit Mt. Rushmore and pay their respects to the Presidents the monument celebrates, the Sioux allowed this and took responsibility for the upkeep of Mt. Rushmore...
...but the Americans weren't at all happy with this arrangement and continued to protest constantly, spreading rumours that the Sioux were going to attack Rushmore and calling for holy war on the Sioux on a regular basis...periodically murdering Sioux as a consequence, and that News report was covering the story of the Americans protesting because the Sioux were planning on repairing Jefferson's nose (which was about to fall off).
Imagine that, because that is the story of the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem.
Yet the political Left of this country could not give a single shite about the Jews and what they have had to put up with, they actually support the 'Palestinians' who are protesting.
Google it, you will find plenty of outraged lefties angry at how Israel deal with the issue.
It is sheer hypocrisy, there are no principles involved.
Secondly.
The point I was making is that your example of building a mosque on a Christian site is not that it was not controversial at the time. Of course it was, it was meant to cause offence. Just that it is no longer controversial because the Christians have largely let it go. There is not a movement to put up plaques telling the history or to get the Islamic world to apologise, or to protest when an Islamic leader visits.
You can't change the status quo and attempt to 'change history' unless you are prepared to go to war and have your children die for that.
Thirdly.
The blue mosque was built on the site of the Great Palace of Constantinople, 'The Sacred Palace', and was positioned in front of (obscuring) the Hagia Sophia;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Palace_of_Constantinople
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sultan_Ahmed_Mosque
Do you think that was an accident?
Fourthly.
The argument I made supports my point (...and HighJack's, when he talked about the castles across Wales) not yours.
All historical misdeeds are not controversial in the West, just the misdeeds that Britain and America (and white skinned Europeans) are responsible for.
It is one sided and unprincipled. It is a political attack on our history and culture, an attack on us.
The reality is that the sins of white skinned Europeans are no worse (or better) than any other people on the planet.
There is no need for our children to grow up feeling guilty and subconsciously hating themselves for being descended from our ancestors, they were no better or worse morally than anyone else, but they did achieve a great deal and are responsible for creating the fortunate position that we are in now...as we busily try to tear it all down at the behest of some bitter losers who believe that if only they could gain control they would create heaven on Earth, a Socialist utopia. |
Not sure why you keep banging on about this.
Both sites are controversial. We’ve all agreed. Apart from Highjack who started this as an attack on the BBC for claiming Rushmore was controversial.
The reasons for ‘Christians largely letting it go’ is the passage of time. Same as the Muslims largely letting it go where cathedrals and churches have been built over mosques.
Mount Rushmore is an ongoing problem - the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the Sioux in 1980 and the settlement has still not been resolved. That’s why it remains a controversy.
I know what the Blue Mosque was built on - as I said, it wasn’t a church. And its positioning was why Muslims at the time were not happy with it. It obscured the Hagia Sophia, which was a mosque (not a church) at that time. So the ‘accident’ you speak of is you getting dates wrong.
No one is asking people to hate themselves. Some of us just think stuff should be taught properly. And we should understand the effects that still reverberate in other countries and, indeed, our own. [Post edited 6 Jul 2020 15:56]
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:26 - Jul 6 with 1442 views | Kerouac |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:47 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
Not sure why you keep banging on about this.
Both sites are controversial. We’ve all agreed. Apart from Highjack who started this as an attack on the BBC for claiming Rushmore was controversial.
The reasons for ‘Christians largely letting it go’ is the passage of time. Same as the Muslims largely letting it go where cathedrals and churches have been built over mosques.
Mount Rushmore is an ongoing problem - the Supreme Court ruled in favour of the Sioux in 1980 and the settlement has still not been resolved. That’s why it remains a controversy.
I know what the Blue Mosque was built on - as I said, it wasn’t a church. And its positioning was why Muslims at the time were not happy with it. It obscured the Hagia Sophia, which was a mosque (not a church) at that time. So the ‘accident’ you speak of is you getting dates wrong.
No one is asking people to hate themselves. Some of us just think stuff should be taught properly. And we should understand the effects that still reverberate in other countries and, indeed, our own. [Post edited 6 Jul 2020 15:56]
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So to clarify.
The Great Palace of Constantine ('The Sacred Palace') was next door to the Hagia Sophia. This was the centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity (What Rome was to Catholicism, what Mecca is to Islam, what Jerusalem is to Judaism) and the Muslim conquerors turned the Hagia Sophia into a mosque, before building another mosque on the site of 'The Sacred Palace', obscuring the view of the Hagia Sophia about 150 years later.
So Islam did similar things, well worse (if we are absolutely honest), to what America did to the Sioux, but you'll never hear a Leftist arguing in favour of taking present day Muslims to task over this but you will hear them banging on about everything the Americans and the British did at every given opportunity, draw your own conclusions.
Yes, history should be taught properly. World History. We could start off by teaching our young people all about the Soviet Union, the causes, the intellectual ideas, who did what, the disastrous consequences, and what people who held those ideas dear (those beliefs, is a better way of putting it) did afterwards.
If they truly understood their history there would never be a Labour government ever again. [Post edited 6 Jul 2020 17:09]
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:31 - Jul 6 with 1440 views | Humpty |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 11:32 - Jul 6 by LeonWasGod |
"We can look at it and say “that was horrible, let’s learn from it and be nicer to each other in future”
That's what people are trying to do. But there are a bunch of other people unwilling to admit things were horrible. Until that's acknowledged, there's no way to learn from past events and move on. |
Spot on. |  | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:49 - Jul 6 with 1424 views | Darran |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:31 - Jul 6 by Humpty |
Spot on. |
Oh ffs if there really is people out there that are unwilling to admit things were horrible a hundred and more years ago what’s the point in even thinking about them when they’re quite clearly wrong.
Who are they anyway? 🤷ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:51 - Jul 6 with 1423 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:26 - Jul 6 by Kerouac |
So to clarify.
The Great Palace of Constantine ('The Sacred Palace') was next door to the Hagia Sophia. This was the centre of Eastern Orthodox Christianity (What Rome was to Catholicism, what Mecca is to Islam, what Jerusalem is to Judaism) and the Muslim conquerors turned the Hagia Sophia into a mosque, before building another mosque on the site of 'The Sacred Palace', obscuring the view of the Hagia Sophia about 150 years later.
So Islam did similar things, well worse (if we are absolutely honest), to what America did to the Sioux, but you'll never hear a Leftist arguing in favour of taking present day Muslims to task over this but you will hear them banging on about everything the Americans and the British did at every given opportunity, draw your own conclusions.
Yes, history should be taught properly. World History. We could start off by teaching our young people all about the Soviet Union, the causes, the intellectual ideas, who did what, the disastrous consequences, and what people who held those ideas dear (those beliefs, is a better way of putting it) did afterwards.
If they truly understood their history there would never be a Labour government ever again. [Post edited 6 Jul 2020 17:09]
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Oh dear God.
The Blue Mosque was built as a mosque, next to another mosque (which had previously been a church, as you say, the most important site of the Orthodox Church). You said the a blue Mosque had been a church when it hadn’t.
Why was it worse than the Americans did to the Sioux? Is it because they were a Muslims per chance?
It’s exactly the same thing. Other than the site of Mount Rushmore was specifically settled to the Sioux in perpetuity and then that was reneged on because they found gold there. Which is not the case in Istanbul / Constantinople.
Your parallel between Soviet communism and a party which had Blair as its most successful leader of the past generation is genuinely funny by the way. Shame you didn’t learn about what it all was about and the ideas on which it was based as that would, at least, spare the rest of us from your accusations of ‘cultural Marxism’ about ideas and people that couldn’t be less bloody Marxist if they tried.
You are so tied to identity politics (“Leftists” lol) it’s laughable, and yet you seem to believe it’s a feature of Marxism. Trump is the head of the biggest expression of identity politics in the West (brexit a short step behind) and yet you and others are obsessed that it’s the ‘enemy’ that’s doing it. God, the Trumpies even all have little hats they wear and everything. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:54 - Jul 6 with 1416 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 15:22 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
What a shame you don’t investigate anything before giving your view.
Easier to criticise the BBC I suppose?
My knowledge of the Sioux or other native Americans is pretty tiny. Just enough to know why Mount Rushmore is controversial. And bits of other history as I’ve spent quite a bit of time in New Mexico, Arizona, Utah, Colorado and been to or near the reservations and national parks etc over the years and like to find out stuff about the history of places I visit, go to the (almost always fabulous) visitor centres, buy books about the area and so on.
You should try it sometime. |
In future I will take your lead and ransack any gift shop or boutique that crosses my path. There won’t be a visitor centre left unvisited. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:59 - Jul 6 with 1408 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:49 - Jul 6 by Darran |
Oh ffs if there really is people out there that are unwilling to admit things were horrible a hundred and more years ago what’s the point in even thinking about them when they’re quite clearly wrong.
Who are they anyway? 🤷ðŸ»â€â™‚ï¸ |
They’re the ones who don’t go to enough gift shops. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:02 - Jul 6 with 1399 views | Darran |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:59 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
They’re the ones who don’t go to enough gift shops. |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:04 - Jul 6 with 1390 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:54 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
In future I will take your lead and ransack any gift shop or boutique that crosses my path. There won’t be a visitor centre left unvisited. |
The visitor centres in the US national parks are more akin to museums than gift shops (although there’s usually a shop attached).
They often have small cinema rooms showing shirt documentaries or histories), extensive educational displays or exhibits, huge numbers of books, Well trained and helpful staff who know all about the area, it’s people, it’s history etc.
They are a fantastic feature of traveling around the West and South West of the US. And they do a great bargain on entry fees as well, as you can buy a pass that lets you in to them all (and you can camp there for a few dollars as well). A wonderful way to spend a few weeks.
If you mocked less and opened your mind a little more you may be surprised what you find out. But it’s up to you. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:07 - Jul 6 with 1379 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:02 - Jul 6 by Darran |
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Why are so many people scared of learning stuff?
It’s a mystery to me. Genuinely. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:15 - Jul 6 with 1368 views | Treforys_Jack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 11:32 - Jul 6 by LeonWasGod |
"We can look at it and say “that was horrible, let’s learn from it and be nicer to each other in future”
That's what people are trying to do. But there are a bunch of other people unwilling to admit things were horrible. Until that's acknowledged, there's no way to learn from past events and move on. |
Watch, the BBC series , the making of Wales, to see how horrible things were in the past. Be very grateful we were born when we were. |  | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:18 - Jul 6 with 1359 views | Kerouac |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 16:51 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
Oh dear God.
The Blue Mosque was built as a mosque, next to another mosque (which had previously been a church, as you say, the most important site of the Orthodox Church). You said the a blue Mosque had been a church when it hadn’t.
Why was it worse than the Americans did to the Sioux? Is it because they were a Muslims per chance?
It’s exactly the same thing. Other than the site of Mount Rushmore was specifically settled to the Sioux in perpetuity and then that was reneged on because they found gold there. Which is not the case in Istanbul / Constantinople.
Your parallel between Soviet communism and a party which had Blair as its most successful leader of the past generation is genuinely funny by the way. Shame you didn’t learn about what it all was about and the ideas on which it was based as that would, at least, spare the rest of us from your accusations of ‘cultural Marxism’ about ideas and people that couldn’t be less bloody Marxist if they tried.
You are so tied to identity politics (“Leftists” lol) it’s laughable, and yet you seem to believe it’s a feature of Marxism. Trump is the head of the biggest expression of identity politics in the West (brexit a short step behind) and yet you and others are obsessed that it’s the ‘enemy’ that’s doing it. God, the Trumpies even all have little hats they wear and everything. |
"Why was it worse than the Americans did to the Sioux? Is it because they were a Muslims per chance?"
It is the difference between building a monument commemorating the Duke of Wellington on a Muslim burial ground
Vs
Taking Mecca and then knocking down all the buildings of religious significance and replacing them with cathedrals.
...and Islam did this in Jerusalem as well as Constantinople and would have done it to Rome too if they hadn't been militarily defeated.
They had plenty of goes at it.
I'm sure you'll dismiss the obvious difference between the two acts and make out it's me who needs educating though  | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:25 - Jul 6 with 1357 views | Highjack |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:04 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
The visitor centres in the US national parks are more akin to museums than gift shops (although there’s usually a shop attached).
They often have small cinema rooms showing shirt documentaries or histories), extensive educational displays or exhibits, huge numbers of books, Well trained and helpful staff who know all about the area, it’s people, it’s history etc.
They are a fantastic feature of traveling around the West and South West of the US. And they do a great bargain on entry fees as well, as you can buy a pass that lets you in to them all (and you can camp there for a few dollars as well). A wonderful way to spend a few weeks.
If you mocked less and opened your mind a little more you may be surprised what you find out. But it’s up to you. |
Unfortunately I haven’t been to the USA since I was about fourteen. My memory of the size and informativeness of the various visitor centres is sketchy, like fingerprints on an abandoned handrail. I do remember getting stopped for attempted gun smuggling when my bag was scanned in the airport but it wasn’t a gun, it was a model of the Statue of Liberty that I had bought in New York. Apparently the arm in the air with the torch looked like the barrel of the gun on the x-ray. How we laughed. Luckily this was before 9/11 or I probably would have been gunned down as I stood. I remember the officer was equipped with an UMP PDW but I completely embarrassed myself by mistaking it for an MP5. | |
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| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:31 - Jul 6 with 1352 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:18 - Jul 6 by Kerouac |
"Why was it worse than the Americans did to the Sioux? Is it because they were a Muslims per chance?"
It is the difference between building a monument commemorating the Duke of Wellington on a Muslim burial ground
Vs
Taking Mecca and then knocking down all the buildings of religious significance and replacing them with cathedrals.
...and Islam did this in Jerusalem as well as Constantinople and would have done it to Rome too if they hadn't been militarily defeated.
They had plenty of goes at it.
I'm sure you'll dismiss the obvious difference between the two acts and make out it's me who needs educating though |
It isn’t just a ‘burial ground’ to them ffs.
So yes, it is you that needs educating.
And yes, I’m aware mosques were built on the site of churches. We’ve already agreed that.
Same as cathedrals were built in Córdoba.
It’s not Mount Rushmore in and of itself which is the issue, it’s the fact that the Black Hills were “ set apart for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupation" of the Lakota” in a Treaty with the US and they then broke it. Them building the Mount Rushmore monument was just a part of the controversy.
Anyway - I’m glad you agree that the BBC was absolutely right to describe it as ‘controversial’. If it hadn’t been, Trump probably wouldn’t have bothered to give his speech there. It’s not like he’s usually a great fan of the outdoors unless it happens to be a golf course. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:55 - Jul 6 with 1334 views | londonlisa2001 |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:25 - Jul 6 by Highjack |
Unfortunately I haven’t been to the USA since I was about fourteen. My memory of the size and informativeness of the various visitor centres is sketchy, like fingerprints on an abandoned handrail. I do remember getting stopped for attempted gun smuggling when my bag was scanned in the airport but it wasn’t a gun, it was a model of the Statue of Liberty that I had bought in New York. Apparently the arm in the air with the torch looked like the barrel of the gun on the x-ray. How we laughed. Luckily this was before 9/11 or I probably would have been gunned down as I stood. I remember the officer was equipped with an UMP PDW but I completely embarrassed myself by mistaking it for an MP5. |
The National Parks are one of the biggest triumphs of the US in my view. The set up is fantastic. | | | |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 18:01 - Jul 6 with 1320 views | Kerouac |
| Mount Rushmore (looks like it's going to kick off on 17:31 - Jul 6 by londonlisa2001 |
It isn’t just a ‘burial ground’ to them ffs.
So yes, it is you that needs educating.
And yes, I’m aware mosques were built on the site of churches. We’ve already agreed that.
Same as cathedrals were built in Córdoba.
It’s not Mount Rushmore in and of itself which is the issue, it’s the fact that the Black Hills were “ set apart for the absolute and undisturbed use and occupation" of the Lakota” in a Treaty with the US and they then broke it. Them building the Mount Rushmore monument was just a part of the controversy.
Anyway - I’m glad you agree that the BBC was absolutely right to describe it as ‘controversial’. If it hadn’t been, Trump probably wouldn’t have bothered to give his speech there. It’s not like he’s usually a great fan of the outdoors unless it happens to be a golf course. |
Córdoba! Córdoba!!
You mean the Spanish, had the temerity to build churches on the site of mosques after their Muslim invaders had been sent packing, yeah, what a f*cking liberty.
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