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We're also glossing over the fact that Beale tailed off very badly during his time here with no wins in his last five (IIRC).
Beale was a flash in the pan. He had us overachieving for a few weeks, at the cost of lengthy injuries to Willock and Amos who were rushed back too soon.
That season's slump started under Beale who didn't have any answers once he had been worked out by the rest of the league.
Ainsworth did keep us up that season. It might have been more luck than judgement and the win at Burnley might have been the biggest heist since Ronnie Biggs and the boys fancied a night out train spotting in Bedfordshire, but to talk of Ainsworth having a promotion squad is a very one-eyed revision of history.
It’s not about who succeeded who. It’s about the squad available to the manager, any manager, and what you can achieve with that.
With Beale, the team hit the top heights during his reign. With Critchley and Ainsworth the team hit pretty much rock bottom.
With Cifuentes form was like top 8th. Same squad.
These are the facts, and give a strong indication of who is a good manager and who is not.
It’s not about who succeeded who. It’s about the squad available to the manager, any manager, and what you can achieve with that.
With Beale, the team hit the top heights during his reign. With Critchley and Ainsworth the team hit pretty much rock bottom.
With Cifuentes form was like top 8th. Same squad.
These are the facts, and give a strong indication of who is a good manager and who is not.
Are you seriously suggesting that on the basis of a ten game hot streak Mick Beale is a better manager than Gareth Ainsworth?
An EFL season is 46 games, not eight or ten.
When Beale came to us he had zero managerial experience. But on the back of some nifty PowerPoints and a few progressive YouTube coaching videos he was hailed as a messiah.
Since leaving us Beale has finished third in a two-horse race in the SPL and only managed four wins at Sunderland with a squad that subsequently got promoted to the PL and doesn't look like coming back to the Championship any time soon.
Ainsworth came to us with ten solid years of getting Wycombe punching well above their weight. He got them promoted to the Championship which even Martin O'Neill didn't achieve there, and he would have kept them up if the EFL hadn't taken so long dithering over what to do about Derby overspending.
Since leaving us Ainsworth had a poor stint at Shrewsbury but kicked off his stint at Gillingham with a 21 game unbeaten run and then the wheels started coming off when he had to step back for heart surgery.
Beale's ten game hot streak with us is the pinnacle of his managerial career. Then again it might never have happened since he is adamant he hasn't worked in London for the last decade.
Don't believe the hype. Beale has enjoyed some success as a coach but his managerial career has largely been a car crash. He might yet make a good manager one day but he clearly wasn't ready for it when we gave him the job.
I always assumed based on nothing other than vibes, that Madsen was not a Cifuentes backed signing.
I think Madsen was part of the starting 11 when we started our winning streak last season. I always got the sense we had to play him due to other injuries, when it would have perhaps been better for him to be slowly integrated. He then put him back in the starting line up towards April when he was fit again.
So I didn't think there was any issue between him and the manager, just injuries and getting used to a different style of game.
Feel like there's a bit of revisionism about Ainsworth.
Just because he stated he kept us up, the fact of the matter is we were 10 points clear of relegation with a handful of games left, only winning 2/3 (? could be mistaken) of those. The fact of the matter is we stayed up in spite of Ainsworth, not because of him. The points we accumulated under Beale kept us up.
Feel like there's a bit of revisionism about Ainsworth.
Just because he stated he kept us up, the fact of the matter is we were 10 points clear of relegation with a handful of games left, only winning 2/3 (? could be mistaken) of those. The fact of the matter is we stayed up in spite of Ainsworth, not because of him. The points we accumulated under Beale kept us up.
Marti, however, kept us up.
If we were in such great shape when Ainsworth was appointed then why was Critchley sacked? And why did literally no one other than some romantic with history at the club want to take his place?
We had 1 win in 17 before Ainsworth was appointed. We were in a death spiral.
The players weren't up to much and they definitely weren't motivated.
Critchley wouldn't have halted the slide and we would have gone down.
The revisionism is to suggest Ainsworth lucked into a talented group and somehow dragged them down to his level.
EDIT:
You are incorrect to say we were ten points clear with only a handful of games left.
Critchley's last game was the round 33 game at Boro:
If we were in such great shape when Ainsworth was appointed then why was Critchley sacked? And why did literally no one other than some romantic with history at the club want to take his place?
We had 1 win in 17 before Ainsworth was appointed. We were in a death spiral.
The players weren't up to much and they definitely weren't motivated.
Critchley wouldn't have halted the slide and we would have gone down.
The revisionism is to suggest Ainsworth lucked into a talented group and somehow dragged them down to his level.
EDIT:
You are incorrect to say we were ten points clear with only a handful of games left.
Critchley's last game was the round 33 game at Boro:
Critchley's often given me the impression he prefers being a coach to a manager. I was surprised, frankly, that he took on other jobs after us. I expected him to go back into high level academy coaching.
Are you seriously suggesting that on the basis of a ten game hot streak Mick Beale is a better manager than Gareth Ainsworth?
An EFL season is 46 games, not eight or ten.
When Beale came to us he had zero managerial experience. But on the back of some nifty PowerPoints and a few progressive YouTube coaching videos he was hailed as a messiah.
Since leaving us Beale has finished third in a two-horse race in the SPL and only managed four wins at Sunderland with a squad that subsequently got promoted to the PL and doesn't look like coming back to the Championship any time soon.
Ainsworth came to us with ten solid years of getting Wycombe punching well above their weight. He got them promoted to the Championship which even Martin O'Neill didn't achieve there, and he would have kept them up if the EFL hadn't taken so long dithering over what to do about Derby overspending.
Since leaving us Ainsworth had a poor stint at Shrewsbury but kicked off his stint at Gillingham with a 21 game unbeaten run and then the wheels started coming off when he had to step back for heart surgery.
Beale's ten game hot streak with us is the pinnacle of his managerial career. Then again it might never have happened since he is adamant he hasn't worked in London for the last decade.
Don't believe the hype. Beale has enjoyed some success as a coach but his managerial career has largely been a car crash. He might yet make a good manager one day but he clearly wasn't ready for it when we gave him the job.
I've never watched another teams pre match press conference before, but I was intrigued to watch Leicester City's one with Marti.
Watch from 6.30 onwards for questions about Sat game with us and watch how his body language completely changes when he starts talking about QPR and especially the fans in which he still has such a great affinity for.
If we were in such great shape when Ainsworth was appointed then why was Critchley sacked? And why did literally no one other than some romantic with history at the club want to take his place?
We had 1 win in 17 before Ainsworth was appointed. We were in a death spiral.
The players weren't up to much and they definitely weren't motivated.
Critchley wouldn't have halted the slide and we would have gone down.
The revisionism is to suggest Ainsworth lucked into a talented group and somehow dragged them down to his level.
EDIT:
You are incorrect to say we were ten points clear with only a handful of games left.
Critchley's last game was the round 33 game at Boro:
We were seven points clear of the bottom three with 13 games remaining when Ainsworth got the job.
[Post edited 19 Dec 15:24]
If you look at points per game I don't think Ainsworth moved the dial enough to claim he saved us from relegation to be honest. I like the guy, I just think for whatever reason it didn't work here
Are you seriously suggesting that on the basis of a ten game hot streak Mick Beale is a better manager than Gareth Ainsworth?
An EFL season is 46 games, not eight or ten.
When Beale came to us he had zero managerial experience. But on the back of some nifty PowerPoints and a few progressive YouTube coaching videos he was hailed as a messiah.
Since leaving us Beale has finished third in a two-horse race in the SPL and only managed four wins at Sunderland with a squad that subsequently got promoted to the PL and doesn't look like coming back to the Championship any time soon.
Ainsworth came to us with ten solid years of getting Wycombe punching well above their weight. He got them promoted to the Championship which even Martin O'Neill didn't achieve there, and he would have kept them up if the EFL hadn't taken so long dithering over what to do about Derby overspending.
Since leaving us Ainsworth had a poor stint at Shrewsbury but kicked off his stint at Gillingham with a 21 game unbeaten run and then the wheels started coming off when he had to step back for heart surgery.
Beale's ten game hot streak with us is the pinnacle of his managerial career. Then again it might never have happened since he is adamant he hasn't worked in London for the last decade.
Don't believe the hype. Beale has enjoyed some success as a coach but his managerial career has largely been a car crash. He might yet make a good manager one day but he clearly wasn't ready for it when we gave him the job.
How you can confidently state Beale was a “flash in the pan” when you can’t see the future is beyond me. The fact he tailed off current form, at the time, is not an accurate predictor of future form. A win changes a lot. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have got that and refound momentum. You don’t have a crystal ball.
And worth mentioning that both Stephan and Marti had multi game losing periods but rebounded. In any case, I’m not really here to discuss Beale. It’s your assertion that Ainsworth did a good job that I find ludicrous. Probably one of the worst managers I’ve ever seen at QPR. Backed up by both the stats and the eye test as the youth would say.
Marti proved that same squad was on course for a top 8 finish over the course of the same season. That brings Ainsworths ability, with the same squad, firmly into the reality of just how bad things really were under his stewardship. We were going down to League 1, and should have done the previous season under him. He took us to the brink. Anyone who puts that first season down to a great Ainsworth escape is probably on the same PR payroll as Nourrys chief spin retainer.
How you can confidently state Beale was a “flash in the pan” when you can’t see the future is beyond me. The fact he tailed off current form, at the time, is not an accurate predictor of future form. A win changes a lot. Who’s to say he wouldn’t have got that and refound momentum. You don’t have a crystal ball.
And worth mentioning that both Stephan and Marti had multi game losing periods but rebounded. In any case, I’m not really here to discuss Beale. It’s your assertion that Ainsworth did a good job that I find ludicrous. Probably one of the worst managers I’ve ever seen at QPR. Backed up by both the stats and the eye test as the youth would say.
Marti proved that same squad was on course for a top 8 finish over the course of the same season. That brings Ainsworths ability, with the same squad, firmly into the reality of just how bad things really were under his stewardship. We were going down to League 1, and should have done the previous season under him. He took us to the brink. Anyone who puts that first season down to a great Ainsworth escape is probably on the same PR payroll as Nourrys chief spin retainer.
With regards to Beale and his "flash in the pan", his only triumph since his ten game hot streak with us is getting one win in six attempts against Celtic and that was in a game where Celtic had already sewn up the title:
He failed in Glasgow and he failed again in Sunderland. Regis le Bris had never managed in this country before taking the Sunderland job and got them promoted with the squad Beale could only manage four wins with.
If you look at Beale's record with us and Sunderland in the Championship he has managed 34 games with 13 wins and 14 defeats. Forgive me if I take out my crystal ball for a moment and suggest he ain't going to be the next Carlo Ancelotti.
Beale developed a style of play for us which succeeded for a few weeks until the rest of the league worked us out. Once that happened he didn't have an answer. A similar thing happened with Jim Magilton in 2009. And even Schteeve McClaren had us looking good for a bit in 2018.
I never once said that Ainsworth produced good football. In fact I haven't even said that he did a good job for us!
What I said was that he doesn't get enough credit for keeping us up in 2022/23.
In the seventeen games before Ainsworth was appointed we had one win and six draws. 9 points in 17 games! If we had kept Critchley and that form going until the end of the season we would have gone down.
You wrongly stated that Ainsworth was appointed with a ten point cushion over the relegation places and "a handful of games left". Well you must have bloody big hands because it was thirteen games left to play, and only a seven point cushion.
Ainsworth got 11 points from those 13 games and we finished six points clear of the drop. So in effect he started with a seven points cushion and finished with a six point cushion, a net loss of one point.
Where I will agree with you is that GA completely lost his way after that and we would have gone down the following season if Marti hadn't saved us.
And since Marti is the real focal point of this thread I would suggest he deserves a respectful greeting on his return tomorrow. He did a solid if not spectacular job in very difficult circumstances.
With regards to Beale and his "flash in the pan", his only triumph since his ten game hot streak with us is getting one win in six attempts against Celtic and that was in a game where Celtic had already sewn up the title:
He failed in Glasgow and he failed again in Sunderland. Regis le Bris had never managed in this country before taking the Sunderland job and got them promoted with the squad Beale could only manage four wins with.
If you look at Beale's record with us and Sunderland in the Championship he has managed 34 games with 13 wins and 14 defeats. Forgive me if I take out my crystal ball for a moment and suggest he ain't going to be the next Carlo Ancelotti.
Beale developed a style of play for us which succeeded for a few weeks until the rest of the league worked us out. Once that happened he didn't have an answer. A similar thing happened with Jim Magilton in 2009. And even Schteeve McClaren had us looking good for a bit in 2018.
I never once said that Ainsworth produced good football. In fact I haven't even said that he did a good job for us!
What I said was that he doesn't get enough credit for keeping us up in 2022/23.
In the seventeen games before Ainsworth was appointed we had one win and six draws. 9 points in 17 games! If we had kept Critchley and that form going until the end of the season we would have gone down.
You wrongly stated that Ainsworth was appointed with a ten point cushion over the relegation places and "a handful of games left". Well you must have bloody big hands because it was thirteen games left to play, and only a seven point cushion.
Ainsworth got 11 points from those 13 games and we finished six points clear of the drop. So in effect he started with a seven points cushion and finished with a six point cushion, a net loss of one point.
Where I will agree with you is that GA completely lost his way after that and we would have gone down the following season if Marti hadn't saved us.
And since Marti is the real focal point of this thread I would suggest he deserves a respectful greeting on his return tomorrow. He did a solid if not spectacular job in very difficult circumstances.
1. You are conflating posters. 2. Ainsworths record across both seasons was utterly dreadful and relegation form, if not rock bottom
1. You are conflating posters. 2. Ainsworths record across both seasons was utterly dreadful and relegation form, if not rock bottom
[Post edited 19 Dec 21:37]
You're right about me conflating posters.
I wrongly attributed sparkey's comments about a ten point cushion to you.
My bad!
Other than that I stick with what I said about GA not getting enough credit for keeping us up in his first season. And also that GA would almost certainly have relegated us in his second season if we hadn't sacked him.
If you look at points per game I don't think Ainsworth moved the dial enough to claim he saved us from relegation to be honest. I like the guy, I just think for whatever reason it didn't work here
Fair enough but I disagree.
I think we would have gone down if we hadn't sacked Critchley. And since no one other than GA wanted the job I don't see how we can credit anyone else with keeping us up.
But I did say in one of my earlier posts that it was probably more luck than judgement.
Looking at Ainsworth's career in the round he has a very good record with Wycombe and got off to a flier with Gillingham.
GA's style was never the right fit for us, and maybe he had become so comfortable at Wycombe after ten years that he didn't think through how hard it would be to recreate that here and whether the fans would want to go down that road.
I've never watched another teams pre match press conference before, but I was intrigued to watch Leicester City's one with Marti.
Watch from 6.30 onwards for questions about Sat game with us and watch how his body language completely changes when he starts talking about QPR and especially the fans in which he still has such a great affinity for.
It was lovely to see for me personally.
It must have been a very restrictive NDA and / or a big settlement seeing how he batted away the question about his departure.
It must have been a very restrictive NDA and / or a big settlement seeing how he batted away the question about his departure.
I don't think we will ever fully know what happened. Which is a shame as you want closure, like I said before it keeps his character intact for me unless real evidence is proven otherwise.
I never had a problem with a manager who has high expectations for himself if it's conducted in a respectful way. Marti for me was that, Nourry wasn't at the time.
Nourry has gotten quite a bit right and also a lot wrong.
That's also not to say Marti isn't in the wrong in any capacity. But as you can see in that video one things for sure he absolutely respects us as a fan base and knows we stuck by him in difficult times.
It’s not about who succeeded who. It’s about the squad available to the manager, any manager, and what you can achieve with that.
With Beale, the team hit the top heights during his reign. With Critchley and Ainsworth the team hit pretty much rock bottom.
With Cifuentes form was like top 8th. Same squad.
These are the facts, and give a strong indication of who is a good manager and who is not.
Beale, in hindsight for his own career should have stayed at least for the season, but greed and an oversized self assessment of his fledgling skills did for him and his career.
Ainsworth, at lower levels, has been decent, but was simply an appalling manager here. Was extremely fortunate, we stayed up. Incredibly lucky.
I've never watched another teams pre match press conference before, but I was intrigued to watch Leicester City's one with Marti.
Watch from 6.30 onwards for questions about Sat game with us and watch how his body language completely changes when he starts talking about QPR and especially the fans in which he still has such a great affinity for.
It was lovely to see for me personally.
"It was lovely to see for me personally."
I found it a bit painful, like watching one of your favourite ex-girlfriends reminisce about how nice it was going out with you.
I've never watched another teams pre match press conference before, but I was intrigued to watch Leicester City's one with Marti.
Watch from 6.30 onwards for questions about Sat game with us and watch how his body language completely changes when he starts talking about QPR and especially the fans in which he still has such a great affinity for.
It was lovely to see for me personally.
He’s not feeling the love there like he had with us and that must hurt him. Anyway, let’s beat the buggers.
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