| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. 13:10 - Feb 8 with 4427 views | Parlay |
I couldn't give a monkeys chuff if i get slated for this by the positive no matter what brigade so don't waste your breath...
This is a massive issue for us now and cant understand why it isn't being addressed. We have the potential to play teams off the park, striker aside we have the best squad we have ever had. Yet we are deploying really silly defensive tactics that not only cause the initial problem of too much time and space for the opposition but breeds other problems as a result. Yesterday was a prime example.
1) When you press to win the ball back at every opportunity it gets the crowd up for a start and adds some urgency into the game and resulting attacks. Something we are lacking.
2) It then allows you to have more of the ball. It is no coincidence that our possession game has taken a nose dive this year. I haven't checked the stats but id say on average we are a good 10% down on average on the previous years.
3) Due to having more of the ball you are more comfortable in possession. Again its no coincidence our passing game has looked a bit meek this year and we seem to give the ball away far more often. This is simply because we don't have it as much and haven't got comfortable with it.
4) When you press and win the ball back high up the field you catch the opposition out of shape and there are gaps for us to attack. Yesterday whenever we had the ball, it seemed to come from the natural progression of that particular Sunderland attack coming to an end. Which means when we did get it back they were already set up in their shape again.
5) it is no coincidence that many times yesterday the attack stalled to pedestrian pace and on a few occasions (Cork, Dyer and Montero) stopped with the ball completely mid way through an attack completely out of ideas who to pass to ahead of him as they were all marked or double marked in some cases.
6) now onto the direct result of not pressing. Yesterday we were in control of the game, yes is was 0-0 but we were creating some chances. Not as many as we could have if we pressed but we still were creating some. Yet we completely stand off Defoe, allow him as much space as he wanted (I think i counted 6 defenders in his vicinity) and he did what he was always going to do and smash one in as he has been doing year after year at this level.
It seems something so easy to rectify and so obvious to need to change to get the best out of our squad, but cant help feeling it is being persevered with because that is the personal stamp that Garry has put on things.
I have championed Monk from the start and continue to do so, but this is one frustrating aspect that doesn't seem to be noted or refuses to be noted.
Obsessors... The floor is yours. |  |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:54 - Feb 8 with 1433 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:23 - Feb 8 by C_jack |
What on earth are you talking about? I don't think you've got it yourself. Of course we cannot win the ball every time, but either way pressing at every opportunity is a tough ask. No (successful) team does that.
You seem to agree with that, but the title of your post is "pressing vs holding shape", which contradicts your idea that we should be systematic and tactical' as to when and where we decide to push up further up the pitch. There doesn't need to be a versus, the two can work in perfect harmony, as long as they have effective plans in place for when we eventually have the ball back.
You don't need to be either, of course, but they are the best at doing it, why wouldn't you look towards the best for an effective example? as opposed to Sunday League ( strange )
There was once a time when Swansea City relished teams pressing us, because we were so good on the ball that simply passed it around them and found the space, no matter how much time we needed to think. WBA away in 2012 being a great example.
It's horses for courses, some teams we would be foolish to try and press relentlessly, against both posession-based and direct teams. [Post edited 8 Feb 2015 21:24]
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Then you didn't read the fact i said "obviously it would be a systematic approach".
It does nothing of the sort in terms of contradicting holding shape. Nobody is asking Gylfi to chase back into the left back position.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the large proportion of the last 10 years we have adopted this and only havent under Monk recently and Laudrup's second part of his reign. Our most uninspiring periods in that time in terms of gameplay.
Nobody is asking to turn us into some machine that only the likes of Barca and Bayern can achieve, it is a simple return to an effective tactic and way of playing that has suited out club for e best part of a decade. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:55 - Feb 8 with 1429 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:53 - Feb 8 by PozuelosSideys |
Yawn. So everyone has to agree with your tactical viewpoints which generally originate from the 1990's then or they are wrong?
Rightio Ron. |
No, anybody who complains about the thread or indeed my replies, can keep out.
Disagree all you like.
Although if you think pressing is a tactic from the 1990's then probably you shouldnt be here in the first place. Ron. [Post edited 8 Feb 2015 21:56]
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:57 - Feb 8 with 1427 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:35 - Feb 8 by PozuelosSideys |
The problem with playing the pressing game for the whole 90 is fitness. Look how many teams have come down here over the last few seasons and press high for the first half and cause us problems. They drop off during the second half and space opens up cos theyre knackered.
I dont think we need to do it for the whole game, i can remember the games where we'd be ambling along, and then somebody like James Collins would have the ball in a bit of space and all of a sudden, Joe Allen and Leon would spring out and shut him down. He either loses the ball, hoofs it back to us or does something stupid. Target the right opposition player at the right time, and it sticks in their head for the rest of the game. That tends to transfer on to other players in their team. Low and behold they all start booting the ball away all the time.
Lifts the players, and deffo lifts the crowd. |
I disagree, you dont press for 90 minutes. If you do then it aint working.
When we did this we would have maybe 60-70% of the ball, so you would be pressing for 30% of the match. The other team would fatigue much quicker, trust me. [Post edited 8 Feb 2015 21:58]
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:04 - Feb 8 with 1414 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:57 - Feb 8 by Parlay |
I disagree, you dont press for 90 minutes. If you do then it aint working.
When we did this we would have maybe 60-70% of the ball, so you would be pressing for 30% of the match. The other team would fatigue much quicker, trust me. [Post edited 8 Feb 2015 21:58]
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I know. Thats what i said, i agree with you. Its a mistake to press for the full 90 - teams have tried that and usually fail because of fitness. They drop in the second half because theyre fhucked.
Ball retention is related, but a different matter under Monk. Hes playing a different gameplan, not one i fancy much i have tbh.
We cant retain possesion for shit atm, and thats part tactical, part the players look scared of the ball. The only one who looks comfortable is Ki. |  |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:10 - Feb 8 with 1396 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:04 - Feb 8 by PozuelosSideys |
I know. Thats what i said, i agree with you. Its a mistake to press for the full 90 - teams have tried that and usually fail because of fitness. They drop in the second half because theyre fhucked.
Ball retention is related, but a different matter under Monk. Hes playing a different gameplan, not one i fancy much i have tbh.
We cant retain possesion for shit atm, and thats part tactical, part the players look scared of the ball. The only one who looks comfortable is Ki. |
Yeah i know, i was just making the point that its not a mistake per se to press for the 90 mins, it just simply shouldn't happen if you are doing it correctly. It should be linked to possession in relation to our game. Which means you can have the pressing mentality for the whole 90 mins but it doesnt mean you are going to be running around for 90 mins, done properly and it should be short bursts of shared exertion amongst the team followed by long periods in possession.
I cant understand why such an obvious hole in our gameplan isn't being addressed and i hope it is not because of vanity. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:13 - Feb 8 with 1391 views | C_jack |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 21:54 - Feb 8 by Parlay |
Then you didn't read the fact i said "obviously it would be a systematic approach".
It does nothing of the sort in terms of contradicting holding shape. Nobody is asking Gylfi to chase back into the left back position.
You seem to be ignoring the fact that the large proportion of the last 10 years we have adopted this and only havent under Monk recently and Laudrup's second part of his reign. Our most uninspiring periods in that time in terms of gameplay.
Nobody is asking to turn us into some machine that only the likes of Barca and Bayern can achieve, it is a simple return to an effective tactic and way of playing that has suited out club for e best part of a decade. |
If it's a systematic approach then why are the two in conflict with one another (hence the vs) ? To be systematic is methodical, careful and disciplined.
Gylfi into the left back position? what on earth.
Large proportion is not true, Sousa thought pressing up was something we did in the gym. We didn't really do it with Roberto either, in fact if I recall teams at that level were often so rigid and poor in possession, we simply just kept our shape patiently, as it was never long before we got the ball back, and did our own thing. At this level it's a different story. I'll give you Rodgers though, 2 years out of 10.
Some will say I'm a Monk hater, but I've admired his realisation that previous 'effective' tactics are no longer relevant, and that new ideas need to be pursued. Whether he's the right person to implement them is another matter. |  |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:22 - Feb 8 with 1380 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:13 - Feb 8 by C_jack |
If it's a systematic approach then why are the two in conflict with one another (hence the vs) ? To be systematic is methodical, careful and disciplined.
Gylfi into the left back position? what on earth.
Large proportion is not true, Sousa thought pressing up was something we did in the gym. We didn't really do it with Roberto either, in fact if I recall teams at that level were often so rigid and poor in possession, we simply just kept our shape patiently, as it was never long before we got the ball back, and did our own thing. At this level it's a different story. I'll give you Rodgers though, 2 years out of 10.
Some will say I'm a Monk hater, but I've admired his realisation that previous 'effective' tactics are no longer relevant, and that new ideas need to be pursued. Whether he's the right person to implement them is another matter. |
They aren't in conflict. You just clearly don't understand. Where have i said we shouldn't be systematic careful or disciplined? Or why do you think pressing is none of those? They aren't related.
Yes as stated it is not a disorganised rabble where Gylfi will chase the ball from the defenders to our own left back position. It is an organised and disciplined pressing approach which I reiterate we have done for the majority of our 10 year success regardless of what you say.
Yes Sousa didn't apply it, i agree with you. Martinez did though, absolutely. However if we take a step back and look at the three spells in which we have not pressed. Sousa, 2nd half of Laudrup reign, 2nd half of Monk reign... All the most uninspiring periods we have had.
Yes some tactics are cyclical but this is a glaring hole that doesnt need replacing. Rushing the opposition is a tactic that will never be out of vogue as its effect will always he constant and that is to limit time on the ball for the other team. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:23 - Feb 8 with 1377 views | PozuelosSideys |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:10 - Feb 8 by Parlay |
Yeah i know, i was just making the point that its not a mistake per se to press for the 90 mins, it just simply shouldn't happen if you are doing it correctly. It should be linked to possession in relation to our game. Which means you can have the pressing mentality for the whole 90 mins but it doesnt mean you are going to be running around for 90 mins, done properly and it should be short bursts of shared exertion amongst the team followed by long periods in possession.
I cant understand why such an obvious hole in our gameplan isn't being addressed and i hope it is not because of vanity. |
Fair enough.
Heres one for you then. Defoe's goal yesterday. Fernandez was blamed for backing off far too much and letting Defoe run on to him. Was that a players error, or was he caught in two minds as to what to do. Keep shape or shut down Defoe? Over -coached?
I noticed a few times yesterday, when we lost the ball up the top of the field, a couple of players would just ignore the ball, turn their backs and run to get back in defensive formation. For me that was horrendous. It wasnt the usual suspect either - ie Shelvey. | |
| "Michu, Britton and Williams could have won 3-0 on their own. They wouldn't have required a keeper." | | Poll: | Hattricks |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:29 - Feb 8 with 1370 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:23 - Feb 8 by PozuelosSideys |
Fair enough.
Heres one for you then. Defoe's goal yesterday. Fernandez was blamed for backing off far too much and letting Defoe run on to him. Was that a players error, or was he caught in two minds as to what to do. Keep shape or shut down Defoe? Over -coached?
I noticed a few times yesterday, when we lost the ball up the top of the field, a couple of players would just ignore the ball, turn their backs and run to get back in defensive formation. For me that was horrendous. It wasnt the usual suspect either - ie Shelvey. |
Agree with you, and it is the reason I have not berated Fernandez for that as it isnt clear whether it was his error of judgement or him simply following instructions. Shelvey has a horrible knack of doing that as soon as he loses the ball thats it, hands on knees and watch the aftermath. That can never be a good thing.
I remember one time where Joey Allen let his man go, didnt track back, i think maybe Taraabt and he smashed one in and there was uproar, and rightly so. To think that was so unheard of to be so annoyed by one occasion shows how high our standards were in that department.
I think because Monk is a defender by trade he has tried to be clever, and put his own stamp in the defensive side by using tactics that simply do not play to our strengths. Id like to say its not vanity that we are persevering with it but it has all the hallmarks of it.
With the quality we have in midfield, ki, shelvey, montero, gylfi, cork - our gameplan should be based around possession and winning that ball back to allow us to have it. We could do a lot of damage of we have the ball yet we are surrendering possession and getting punished time after time in such obvious fashion. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:43 - Feb 8 with 1353 views | C_jack |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:22 - Feb 8 by Parlay |
They aren't in conflict. You just clearly don't understand. Where have i said we shouldn't be systematic careful or disciplined? Or why do you think pressing is none of those? They aren't related.
Yes as stated it is not a disorganised rabble where Gylfi will chase the ball from the defenders to our own left back position. It is an organised and disciplined pressing approach which I reiterate we have done for the majority of our 10 year success regardless of what you say.
Yes Sousa didn't apply it, i agree with you. Martinez did though, absolutely. However if we take a step back and look at the three spells in which we have not pressed. Sousa, 2nd half of Laudrup reign, 2nd half of Monk reign... All the most uninspiring periods we have had.
Yes some tactics are cyclical but this is a glaring hole that doesnt need replacing. Rushing the opposition is a tactic that will never be out of vogue as its effect will always he constant and that is to limit time on the ball for the other team. |
So why is there a versus in the title of the thread? which of course insinuates opposition. You have contradicted yourself, as to be systematic and disciplined is deciding when to press, and when to hold, not one, or the other.
Roberto was all about the midfield 5, we over ran every opposition with or without the ball in the middle, we never pressed high up the field, goodness, I remember Jason Scotland waddling from one side of the pitch to the other in the desperate hope that one day someone would come help him out.
We simply kept our shape and waited for the golden triangle of Leon, Ferrie and Pratley to win the ball back in the middle. Pratley was always running all over the shop anyway, but the rest stood off. As I said, the other teams were hopeless and often played a lofted ball anyway. Why would we want to limit time on the ball for teams that never wanted time on the ball in the first place?
Again, it's horses for courses, home and away, opposition dependent, it's nowhere near a tactic that has a constant effect, we're not going to press up high against teams that are really comfortable with one touch football, (as WBA found out against us) and we're not going to press teams that are just going to lump it over our heads.
Madness is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, or so someone said. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:54 - Feb 8 with 1344 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 22:43 - Feb 8 by C_jack |
So why is there a versus in the title of the thread? which of course insinuates opposition. You have contradicted yourself, as to be systematic and disciplined is deciding when to press, and when to hold, not one, or the other.
Roberto was all about the midfield 5, we over ran every opposition with or without the ball in the middle, we never pressed high up the field, goodness, I remember Jason Scotland waddling from one side of the pitch to the other in the desperate hope that one day someone would come help him out.
We simply kept our shape and waited for the golden triangle of Leon, Ferrie and Pratley to win the ball back in the middle. Pratley was always running all over the shop anyway, but the rest stood off. As I said, the other teams were hopeless and often played a lofted ball anyway. Why would we want to limit time on the ball for teams that never wanted time on the ball in the first place?
Again, it's horses for courses, home and away, opposition dependent, it's nowhere near a tactic that has a constant effect, we're not going to press up high against teams that are really comfortable with one touch football, (as WBA found out against us) and we're not going to press teams that are just going to lump it over our heads.
Madness is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results, or so someone said. |
Because we have seemingly replaced the pressing tactics that Monk brought back with a new stand off and hold shape system. That is not contradictory in the slightest, it is simply fact. My thread is to discuss which is most effective, hence the "vs".
We have always had a midfield 5 it is part of our "identity" as it were. Granted Scotland didnt chase around but as a midfield unit we certainly did. I fact i remember distinctly us springing out of our shape one by one to chase down balls in defence against Huddersfield and they didnt know whether they were coming or going. It was a joy to watch. Pratley in particular used to harass the opposition as well as leon. This was also prevalent against Bristol City away in our 2-0 win we pressed them relentlessly.
Im not sure what you mean by doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. Isnt that what we are doing now? Standing off time after time after time and getting punished? | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 08:40 - Feb 9 with 1289 views | Dr_Winston |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 13:29 - Feb 8 by monmouth |
I agree with most of that Parlay. I thought we were trying to press at times yesterday and immediately that upped the tempo and we looked better for it. More of it needed.
Keeping shape and standing off does my head in. I don't believe in surrendering the initiative in any aspect of life.. |
We stand off our own players at throw ins. No f*cker wants the ball. |  |
| Pain or damage don't end the world. Or despair, or f*cking beatings. The world ends when you're dead. Until then, you got more punishment in store. Stand it like a man... and give some back. |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 10:29 - Feb 9 with 1267 views | max936 |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 08:40 - Feb 9 by Dr_Winston |
We stand off our own players at throw ins. No f*cker wants the ball. |
Great thread and read this Congrats  |  |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 10:36 - Feb 9 with 1265 views | sixpenses |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 10:29 - Feb 9 by max936 |
Great thread and read this Congrats |
Agree very interesting to read |  | | |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 10:55 - Feb 9 with 1255 views | monmouth |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 08:40 - Feb 9 by Dr_Winston |
We stand off our own players at throw ins. No f*cker wants the ball. |
Ha ha...it's true. We must be the worst throwers in in the whole prem. We might as well train someone to do a Stok...I mean do a Cardiff and hurl it hopefully into the mixer (where at least one, although normally only one, of our players would be), at least we might pick up a header out, rather than just give it to the oppo on the touchline anyway. |  |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 12:26 - Feb 9 with 1267 views | GreatBritton |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 20:34 - Feb 8 by Davillin |
It’s all more complicated than some posters appear to appreciate.
[This post is about pressing defences against possession teams — regardless of which team is playing either.]
A pressing defence against a comparably-skilled possession game is going to lose most of the time. The key is that the possession team must have zero players on the pitch who don’t play the scheme as it is designed.
Using a high pressing defence causes the available free areas of the pitch to increase dramatically from box to box, just as using wide attacking wingers causes the available free areas to increase dramatically side to side.
The more available free areas, the easier it is for a possession attacking team to dominate.
For a possession team to succeed, all eleven players must have these characteristics in abundance: a strong sense of unselfish team play; quickness of mind and foot; an eagerness and ability to make themselves available for passes; quickness in assessing the positions and potential movements of the other players on the pitch; and as a combination of all of those, the ability to quickly and accurately move the ball to a teammate in a more advantageous position.
If there is even but one player who is a freelancer; who is slow of mind and/or foot; who does not find space in which to make himself quickly available, or goes walkabout at times; who is not quick enough to know what to do with the ball even before he receives the pass; and who is not quick enough of mind and foot to quickly make his passes, then intelligent defensive pressure will make the possession team look bad.
There is little more irritating than to see one player in a possession team pointing the ball away from himself, with lots of space he could have moved into; or receiving a pass and not knowing what to do next to kick it straight back to the passer; or when finding nothing and having no plan, to dribble into a couple of opponents and lose the ball; or to hoof it 50 yards up the field to an opponent, the corner flag, or row Z.
For the ideal, think of Leon when he’s fit and on his game. Think of Ash Williams, who always knows what he can do with the ball before he receives it — when his best option is to make the short quick pass to another back or to a midfielder, or to dribble into the space they give him, or to make a pinpoint deep crossfield pass. Why? Because he knows what’s available and what’s not while the ball is on its way to him.
Think of Sigurdsson in the middle of a gaggle of other players making a deadly pass through a crowd to a moving striker.
Swansea has had dozens of these players, who have made the team’s style work to perfection nearly all of the time. I don’t have to list them for those of you who have followed the team long enough.
In my fixed opinion, it’s not the pressing opponent that causes the Swans problems with team “style,” but one or two of our own players who break it down.
And I still rejoice that Swansea City is still in the Golden Age. Through thick and thin so far this season, we have never been out of the Top Ten on the Premier League Table.
If I could go back in time to tell the fans at The Vetch at the end of the near-regulation season that that would happen — and if they believed me — such joy would it cause!
What larks, Pip, old chap. What larks!
 [Post edited 8 Feb 2015 20:37]
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Brilliant post, especially with the Joe quote at the end |  | | |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 12:38 - Feb 9 with 1258 views | monmouth |
It could actually be argued that pressing cost us the goal on Saturday I suppose. Attempting and nearly, but just not getting the tackle actually opened up the space. Defoe certainly wasn't pressed though. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 12:45 - Feb 9 with 1247 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 12:38 - Feb 9 by monmouth |
It could actually be argued that pressing cost us the goal on Saturday I suppose. Attempting and nearly, but just not getting the tackle actually opened up the space. Defoe certainly wasn't pressed though. |
If you ask any striker if they would prefer to be rushed into a decision and closed down or be given time they would choose space and time. If you ask a defender (who are notoriously awkward on the ball, broadly speaking) if they would prefer to be given time and space or rushed.. They would say the same.
By standing off we are playing into their hands and making it comfortable for them. Especially at home where they are out of their comfort zone anyway. To gift them a foothold in the game is almost criminal. | |
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| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 14:42 - Feb 9 with 1210 views | football2301 |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 18:10 - Feb 8 by Islander |
Agree re closing down further upfield - however although gomis seems to be working harder, JJS isnt putting in the same intelligent tracking-back effort as Gylfi
I believe we will see an improvement in high-pressing when Gylfi returns |
Your talking bolox intelligent tracking back talk sense jjs is far better at tracking defending and screening than soggy ever will be watch the game properly or watch it with someone who understands the game properly | | | |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 14:46 - Feb 9 with 1209 views | Parlay |
| Pressing game vs holding shape and standing off. on 14:42 - Feb 9 by football2301 |
Your talking bolox intelligent tracking back talk sense jjs is far better at tracking defending and screening than soggy ever will be watch the game properly or watch it with someone who understands the game properly |
Sorry to interject but you are wrong.
Ive not seen a midfielder worse at tracking back at the club in some years. Possibly since Jan Molby. | |
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