| The end of the beginning — Column on 19:05 - Aug 28 with 2146 views | NorthLondonR |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 15:02 - Aug 28 by CroydonCaptJack |
Look, I have apologised about that so many times. You need to let it go.
I have traded the merc in for an Aston Martin now by the way. |
You just can't resist can you... well... WELL!!! |  | |  |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 19:06 - Aug 28 with 2144 views | BlackCrowe |
fab fab fab.
And that Eze Humiliating Everyone video is amazing - hadn't seen that before.
Great tune soundtrack too....anyone know what is (shazam isn't finding it)? [Post edited 28 Aug 2020 19:08]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 20:10 - Aug 28 with 2080 views | Hunterhoop |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 19:06 - Aug 28 by BlackCrowe |
fab fab fab.
And that Eze Humiliating Everyone video is amazing - hadn't seen that before.
Great tune soundtrack too....anyone know what is (shazam isn't finding it)? [Post edited 28 Aug 2020 19:08]
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Yeah, it’s mesmeric, that video. How many professional footballers has he embarrassed?! He’s only Just turned 22!! |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 20:27 - Aug 28 with 2066 views | Hunterhoop |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 18:55 - Aug 28 by Harbour |
Totally agree Norf heard that comment lazy about Eze a few times and Ned before him it’s disgusting. Thankfully the few idiots mouthing it in the minority.
Good luck Ebere thanks for the fantastic memories I hope you do well in the premiership. |
Ditto. Had a couple of blokes near me (we’re all STs, and they are to all intents and purposes, nice friendly guys) give Eze the “lazy” stick repeatedly. We used to get into regular arguments. One would shout it, and I’d lean down and argue it as being nonsense or say what about him, him, him, etc. It happened regularly over the last two seasons. Same people praised Washington for working hard.
These guys came to acknowledge and rate Eze. I don’t think they are consciously racist. But unconscious bias is a really big thing. It exists. It affects people.
I think Clive’s piece was just calling that out. We absolutely do not have a fanbase that consciously and deliberately racially abused players, but that doesn’t mean unconscious bias doesn’t exist. And, where it is evident (“Eze is lazy”, “run Eze”, “he just doesn’t work hard enough”, etc) it should be called out. It doesn’t make the person who said it a bad person, but we all need to recognise and acknowledge when we show unconscious bias linked purely (and unconsciously) to the colour of someone’s skin. It’s the only way we eradicate it as a society. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 22:05 - Aug 28 with 1987 views | Myke |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 15:22 - Aug 28 by Northernr |
Mate let me have a better swing at a reply, because your post was good and it got me thinking.
I almost deleted that stuff from the piece this morning because I didn't really want to get into a debate exactly like this but it's there now so I should try and defend it. It makes me uncomfortable, as a white middle class lad, talking about it so I usually just leave it but I did think it was an important part of his time at QPR andI left it in and should explain why. It's also hypocritical of me to delete all the politics and BLM stuff off the message board but then sling a little line like that into a piece. And your reply is good and deserves better than "speaking generally..."
Do I think QPR supporters are racist, or the club has a racism problem. Absolutely fcking not. Let's get that clear right at the start. I remember Podcast Flo tried to address this Eze issue at the time on Twitter and did so in a rather broad brush strokes way that made it look like she said that and she got absolutely battered for weeks so I want to be really clear. If you look around our support at games, yeh it's male and pale like all football crowds in this country, but it's more diverse than almost anywhere else in the league as far as I can see. We've been accepting of players and people of all backgrounds, never had the problems that Chelsea, Newcastle, Everton had historically as far as I've ever been aware. I wouldn't stand among a group of racist people.
However, as with every group, there is a minority there. It's a tiny minority at QPR, miniscule compared to most clubs, but I have stood in away ends at Luton and Oldham and heard songs about "you mum runs a corner shop". I was in the away end at West Ham a few years ago when a group behind us started singing "Loic Remy Remy, he swings from a fcking tree, he eats with his fcking feet" after he'd gone to Chelsea. Now what happened that day is everybody around them in the away end immediately stopped watching the game, got stuck into them, and told them to pack that the fck in. Which is great. Backs up the point about not having a racist support base. But also, that there is a minority in there that think that sort of thing funny, or acceptable. You only need look around QPR twitter during this BLM movement, the taking of the knee and things like that. Ilias Chair retweets some cartoon along the lines of "if a Muslim kills somebody he's a terrorist, if a white person kills somebody he's got mental health issues" and there are QPR accounts saying he should be fined, sacked, never play for the club again. So it is there, albeit in a tiny minority compared to most other clubs.
The Eze lazy stuff made me uncomfortable for three reasons. 1 - it's not true. He's gone from QPR's U23s to a £20m player in four years. It's not fcking true. 2 - I don't think it's a debate that black players get accused of being lazy, and powerful, more than white players do. John Barnes for England back in the day, classic example. Is it exclusively black players? No, you've pointed that out really well. But there is that tendency there, in general. 3 - There was a non-black player in that team, Tomer Hemed, at exactly the same time, contributing far less, phoning in sick for four months over the winter, going through the motions, with far more experience, costing us far more money, who nobody said a thing about at the same time as I'm hearing "lazy" about a kid of 20 with 60 first team appearances under his belt.
So that's why it's in there, but also why it's only three lines in a 3,000 word piece. I thought it was a thing, from a minority, and a part of his time here, and something worth raising. |
OK - so no desire to hi-jack 3000 words of superb prose for the sake of a few lines. but it's kinda out there now so... And all debate is healthy yeah? Obviously I can't comment about actual match day experience but a couple of points about this.
(1) I first heard the 'powerful black player' comment on Sky last July shortly after the whole Black Lives Matter movement kicked off . To me that is just skewing a compliment to make it seem like a slur. Many black players - indeed athletes in general - ARE strong and powerful, are we not allowed to comment on their attributes without it being used as an inverted example of racism?
(2) You very rightly condemn any aspect of racism and point out that the majority of fans are 'male and pale'. But you let a whole lot of 'Dykes' "banter" slide. Is that because the vast majority that post here are male and straight |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 22:31 - Aug 28 with 1955 views | Northernr |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 22:05 - Aug 28 by Myke |
OK - so no desire to hi-jack 3000 words of superb prose for the sake of a few lines. but it's kinda out there now so... And all debate is healthy yeah? Obviously I can't comment about actual match day experience but a couple of points about this.
(1) I first heard the 'powerful black player' comment on Sky last July shortly after the whole Black Lives Matter movement kicked off . To me that is just skewing a compliment to make it seem like a slur. Many black players - indeed athletes in general - ARE strong and powerful, are we not allowed to comment on their attributes without it being used as an inverted example of racism?
(2) You very rightly condemn any aspect of racism and point out that the majority of fans are 'male and pale'. But you let a whole lot of 'Dykes' "banter" slide. Is that because the vast majority that post here are male and straight |
Kind of why I love this message board, makes you think and not just mindless abuse.
At this time of night I don’t know. Luckily it’s a long weekend. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:22 - Aug 28 with 1855 views | BrianMcCarthy |
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/47735/terry-expose
Two quotes fro this piece: the first for context, the second for the the sheer poetry of it all.
"Eze, 19, making his second start at Championship level, was the best player on the pitch by some distance. There’s a sort of musical rhythm to his shoulder movement as he slaloms past opponents into space before, constantly, picking the right pass. His strength, calmness on the ball and faultless passing game set the tone of QPR’s best performance of the season. "
"At one point surrounded by three men and tight to the touchline over by the dugouts he slipped away into the night with the ball leaving behind only a rumour that he’d ever been there in the first place. " |  |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:48 - Aug 28 with 1831 views | Northernr |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:22 - Aug 28 by BrianMcCarthy |
https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/queensparkrangers/news/47735/terry-expose
Two quotes fro this piece: the first for context, the second for the the sheer poetry of it all.
"Eze, 19, making his second start at Championship level, was the best player on the pitch by some distance. There’s a sort of musical rhythm to his shoulder movement as he slaloms past opponents into space before, constantly, picking the right pass. His strength, calmness on the ball and faultless passing game set the tone of QPR’s best performance of the season. "
"At one point surrounded by three men and tight to the touchline over by the dugouts he slipped away into the night with the ball leaving behind only a rumour that he’d ever been there in the first place. " |
If only they’d listened to me about Andy Robertson  | | | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:50 - Aug 28 with 1826 views | qprxtc |
Many great words have been spoke here. And more will no doubt.
I’ll miss Eze. And we all will. He was picked out for criticism because he was black, I’m sure of that. But as someone who shouted at Les when I was younger, for being a lazy git, when he was obviously the best player we had, I shan’t cast stones.
Also , Taarbat. Got dogs abuse for stuff that Stan did, but he was one of us.
If we don’t learn, we don’t live. Always be better. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 00:01 - Aug 29 with 1815 views | CiderwithRsie |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 19:06 - Aug 28 by BlackCrowe |
fab fab fab.
And that Eze Humiliating Everyone video is amazing - hadn't seen that before.
Great tune soundtrack too....anyone know what is (shazam isn't finding it)? [Post edited 28 Aug 2020 19:08]
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Was watching that and my daughter said "Why is this music so sad? Is he dead?"
"No, transferred to Crystal palace"
"Ah. Worse." | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 00:10 - Aug 29 with 1805 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 23:50 - Aug 28 by qprxtc |
Many great words have been spoke here. And more will no doubt.
I’ll miss Eze. And we all will. He was picked out for criticism because he was black, I’m sure of that. But as someone who shouted at Les when I was younger, for being a lazy git, when he was obviously the best player we had, I shan’t cast stones.
Also , Taarbat. Got dogs abuse for stuff that Stan did, but he was one of us.
If we don’t learn, we don’t live. Always be better. |
I once criticised Eze on this forum or being lazy over a 45 minute burst, and that was all. And I have criticised a Galwegian for being lazy far, far more.
Let's not beat ourselves up either. All we're doing is watching.
I'm glad Clive included it, I think it had to be mentioned to be a true reflection of his time here. But as he and others have rightly said, Rangers are a club that tries continually to be normal and fair and decent, and tries harder than most. No medals for that, naturally. But we are trying, I feel. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 00:25 - Aug 29 with 1781 views | qprxtc |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 00:10 - Aug 29 by BrianMcCarthy |
I once criticised Eze on this forum or being lazy over a 45 minute burst, and that was all. And I have criticised a Galwegian for being lazy far, far more.
Let's not beat ourselves up either. All we're doing is watching.
I'm glad Clive included it, I think it had to be mentioned to be a true reflection of his time here. But as he and others have rightly said, Rangers are a club that tries continually to be normal and fair and decent, and tries harder than most. No medals for that, naturally. But we are trying, I feel. |
I hear ya Brian. I’m not trying to be holier than thou or say that anyone is above criticism be they whatever colour, creed etc
What I was doing was following a lot of people’s opinions about Les without any thought about it.
I used the term “coloured” for years. Not through any intent but everyone said that. It was just what you said.
I only knew it was appreciated until one day in 1993 at a work training session, I was told it was not a good thing. I thought at the time, really? Why? But then it’s not me on the end of it, day after day, year after year.
It’s all a learning game this life. None of us will leave this life pure and free of guilt. None of us.
It’s a hard road for most. And others try to make it worse. All we can do is be sure of ourselves and try to smooth it for others around us.
What a f ucking hippy. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 01:20 - Aug 29 with 1753 views | Benny_the_Ball |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 20:27 - Aug 28 by Hunterhoop |
Ditto. Had a couple of blokes near me (we’re all STs, and they are to all intents and purposes, nice friendly guys) give Eze the “lazy” stick repeatedly. We used to get into regular arguments. One would shout it, and I’d lean down and argue it as being nonsense or say what about him, him, him, etc. It happened regularly over the last two seasons. Same people praised Washington for working hard.
These guys came to acknowledge and rate Eze. I don’t think they are consciously racist. But unconscious bias is a really big thing. It exists. It affects people.
I think Clive’s piece was just calling that out. We absolutely do not have a fanbase that consciously and deliberately racially abused players, but that doesn’t mean unconscious bias doesn’t exist. And, where it is evident (“Eze is lazy”, “run Eze”, “he just doesn’t work hard enough”, etc) it should be called out. It doesn’t make the person who said it a bad person, but we all need to recognise and acknowledge when we show unconscious bias linked purely (and unconsciously) to the colour of someone’s skin. It’s the only way we eradicate it as a society. |
Sorry but I don't buy this. Neither you nor Clive have any factual evidence to support the assertion that fans called Eze lazy because he's black. Perhaps they were deceived by Eze's smooth, languid style? Perhaps they didn't understand that it wasn't Eze's remit to track back? Matt Le Tissier was often called lazy because of a similarly languid style but such comments were never attributed to his race.
There's a world of difference between folk chucking bananas at John Barnes, making monkey noises at Raheem Sterling and calling Eze lazy. The first two are explicit racism fuelled by hate and jealousy; this should and must be eradicated from society. The third is a dim but harmless comment made by a minority that clearly don't understand football. By all mean disagree with the assessment but not on the grounds of racism.
Terms like "unconscious bias" are frankly nonsense. It provides virtue signalling liberals with a license to accuse perfectly innocent individuals of being fundamentally racist without any supporting evidence. Such terms only serve to undermine the good work being done to promote equality and eliminate genuine discrimination from our society.
And even if unconscious bias is a thing, it's not necessarily discrimination. After all, aren't we being encouraged to celebrate differences? Recognising that black men are fast and powerful is not an insult but a celebration. Recognising that men tend to be more physically powerful than women is just understanding a clear and obvious biological fact and should not be misconstrued as chauvinism. In any event, where does society draw the line? White men can't jump? Dad dancing?
Clive, you're clearly a talented writer but by your own admission you're a middle-class, white lad with little to no personal experience of racism. It's such a shame that an otherwise excellent article designed to give a warm send-off to a wonderful player has been tainted by unnecessary and unsubstantiated talk of racism. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 1:25]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 07:05 - Aug 29 with 1680 views | Hunterhoop |
Benny, I’m not going to get into this too much and derail the thread, but very simply if you don’t accept unconscious bias exists then I despair. It has been proven in many studies, several of which were brought to the fore concerning US police recently. But it doesn’t just relate to skin colour, it can concern all manner of other things. We all suffer from unconscious bias on a variety of topics. I was trying to say in my post that it didn’t make these fans bad people, just that is important to call out unconscious bias so it can become consciously recognised and hopefully behaviour adapts as a result, a good outcome for all. I have plenty of evidence to have reached that conclusion of the guys near me. Over years I don’t recall them shouting at any similarly styled players for being lazy, such as Freeman or Chair. In one match within 10 seconds of kick off, when Rangers still hadn't touched the ball (oppo kicked off) one of them singled out and shouted at Eze to work harder...no one else was specifically shouted out. It was so apparent with one of the guys with Eze, it became a running joke for a while with my mates I go with. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:25 - Aug 29 with 1639 views | gazza1 |
Some of the stuff re racist is 'piss poor'........why is racism being brought into it??
My view on Eze is clear.......He has the talents, skills, whatever you want to call it but he was lazy or didn't work hard enough, not because he was black but because he didn't know any better or just couldn't be bothered. However, he has been told in no uncertain terms by MW and his team or someone that he has the ability to become a Premiership player but work rate is important.....(maybe he decided himself that he needed to increase his work on the pitch I don't know)
He took that 'on board' and became an even better footballer over the past 12 months and he now has a great chance to become a top player .
Fook all to do with black skin......comes across as a nice lad too. | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:25 - Aug 29 with 1641 views | NW5Hoop |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 01:20 - Aug 29 by Benny_the_Ball |
Sorry but I don't buy this. Neither you nor Clive have any factual evidence to support the assertion that fans called Eze lazy because he's black. Perhaps they were deceived by Eze's smooth, languid style? Perhaps they didn't understand that it wasn't Eze's remit to track back? Matt Le Tissier was often called lazy because of a similarly languid style but such comments were never attributed to his race.
There's a world of difference between folk chucking bananas at John Barnes, making monkey noises at Raheem Sterling and calling Eze lazy. The first two are explicit racism fuelled by hate and jealousy; this should and must be eradicated from society. The third is a dim but harmless comment made by a minority that clearly don't understand football. By all mean disagree with the assessment but not on the grounds of racism.
Terms like "unconscious bias" are frankly nonsense. It provides virtue signalling liberals with a license to accuse perfectly innocent individuals of being fundamentally racist without any supporting evidence. Such terms only serve to undermine the good work being done to promote equality and eliminate genuine discrimination from our society.
And even if unconscious bias is a thing, it's not necessarily discrimination. After all, aren't we being encouraged to celebrate differences? Recognising that black men are fast and powerful is not an insult but a celebration. Recognising that men tend to be more physically powerful than women is just understanding a clear and obvious biological fact and should not be misconstrued as chauvinism. In any event, where does society draw the line? White men can't jump? Dad dancing?
Clive, you're clearly a talented writer but by your own admission you're a middle-class, white lad with little to no personal experience of racism. It's such a shame that an otherwise excellent article designed to give a warm send-off to a wonderful player has been tainted by unnecessary and unsubstantiated talk of racism. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 1:25]
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1. Sorry, but unconscious bias is - as Hunter says - very much a thing. It’s why police searches disproportionately target black men, it’s why black men getting in first class compartments here told that bit is first class, why it’s easier for public school kids to get into university etc etc etc
2. People calling black players lazy almost certainly aren’t doing so because they want to join the KKK. They’re doing it from received wisdom, without questioning it. But how do you think the black player who gets called lazy every week feels when the white lad alongside him doesn’t get called lazy? Do you think he goes, “It’s not malicious, never mind.” Or do you think he notices she white bloke doesn’t get called lazy and notes the one difference between them is their skin colour.
3. Racism isn’t just hatred. It’s stereotyping. So black players are not fast and powerful, they are individuals. Clive Wilson wasn’t powerful. Devon White wasn’t fast. There are fast and powerful black players and fast and powerful white players. Judge them as individuals not as possessors of racial characteristics. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 10:10]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:56 - Aug 29 with 1615 views | RBlock |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 01:20 - Aug 29 by Benny_the_Ball |
Sorry but I don't buy this. Neither you nor Clive have any factual evidence to support the assertion that fans called Eze lazy because he's black. Perhaps they were deceived by Eze's smooth, languid style? Perhaps they didn't understand that it wasn't Eze's remit to track back? Matt Le Tissier was often called lazy because of a similarly languid style but such comments were never attributed to his race.
There's a world of difference between folk chucking bananas at John Barnes, making monkey noises at Raheem Sterling and calling Eze lazy. The first two are explicit racism fuelled by hate and jealousy; this should and must be eradicated from society. The third is a dim but harmless comment made by a minority that clearly don't understand football. By all mean disagree with the assessment but not on the grounds of racism.
Terms like "unconscious bias" are frankly nonsense. It provides virtue signalling liberals with a license to accuse perfectly innocent individuals of being fundamentally racist without any supporting evidence. Such terms only serve to undermine the good work being done to promote equality and eliminate genuine discrimination from our society.
And even if unconscious bias is a thing, it's not necessarily discrimination. After all, aren't we being encouraged to celebrate differences? Recognising that black men are fast and powerful is not an insult but a celebration. Recognising that men tend to be more physically powerful than women is just understanding a clear and obvious biological fact and should not be misconstrued as chauvinism. In any event, where does society draw the line? White men can't jump? Dad dancing?
Clive, you're clearly a talented writer but by your own admission you're a middle-class, white lad with little to no personal experience of racism. It's such a shame that an otherwise excellent article designed to give a warm send-off to a wonderful player has been tainted by unnecessary and unsubstantiated talk of racism. [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 1:25]
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"BAME offenders (particularly male BAME offenders) were more likely to be sentenced to prison than White offenders..., under similar criminal circumstances."
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
The sauce as well if you're interested. From the Government's own report, not the Guardian or the Mirror. It's one example of Unconscious Bias that you term 'frankly nonsense'. Just because people aren't comparing lads to apes or calling them racial pejoratives doesn't not mean they aren't being treated differently due to their race. It can be hiring the white candidate over the better qualified BAME, for instance, something that occurs far too often.
https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/BAME+IT+workers+better+qualified+
This isn't harmless unconscious bias, using these lazy descriptions of BAME men as "fast and powerful" pigeon holes them, and undermines their value. It feeds into the trope that they are only fast and powerful.
The comments Clive makes are far from baseless. Whilst he comments from his experiences watching football, analysis of language used by commentators, once ratio adjusted, found that 60% of praise for hard work went to white players rather than BAME players. 65% of negative comments about a players quality goes towards BAME players, as do 63% of negative comments about a players intelligence. This is far from baseless. This commentary (another example of unconscious bias, I'm not suggesting Clive Tyldesley is EDL) influences public opinion of these players, and as above, pigeon holes them. Why do you then think we see so few black coaches, when we have such wonderful BAME footballers.
Sauce https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This all again feeds into the tired old narrative of black players being lazy, or only fast and powerful. We saw when Souness described Eze as fast and powerful, comparing him to Yaya Toure, when in truth Eze's intelligence, his first touch, his awareness, are all far more important and evident attributes. This is a clear example of systemic racism in football, that permeates all levels of the game.
Frankly nonsense. Okay mate.
[Post edited 29 Aug 2020 9:09]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 09:25 - Aug 29 with 1565 views | plasmahoop |
Quite an interesting debate. I think Clive is onto something though, at the Birmingham game there were a couple of knuckledraggers that shouted at eze on repeat that he was lazy. They shouted at most of our other players too. Nothing was good enough for them at all. Do I think they were racists? Probably. Can't prove it, maybe they aren't, but looking at them in a prejudicesd way I think they probably are. Either way it was massively irritating hearing them say it what seemed like about a hundred times | | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 10:25 - Aug 29 with 1510 views | CliveWilsonSaid |
“While McClaren bombed out the majority of players he was meant to be developing — that Holloway had been giving gametime to, albeit in a slightly haphazard way — and demanded a “team of men” on loan from the Premier League to cover his arse, Eze played every minute of every game.“
He has played a phenomenal amount of football over the last 2 seasons.
Can any of the ‘Statos’ on here work out how many league minutes he actually played in that time? Has anyone ever played more league minutes over two seasons than Eze has over the last two seasons for QPR? The lazy so and so! If so who? [Post edited 29 Aug 2020 10:33]
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 10:36 - Aug 29 with 1492 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 15:22 - Aug 28 by Northernr |
Mate let me have a better swing at a reply, because your post was good and it got me thinking.
I almost deleted that stuff from the piece this morning because I didn't really want to get into a debate exactly like this but it's there now so I should try and defend it. It makes me uncomfortable, as a white middle class lad, talking about it so I usually just leave it but I did think it was an important part of his time at QPR andI left it in and should explain why. It's also hypocritical of me to delete all the politics and BLM stuff off the message board but then sling a little line like that into a piece. And your reply is good and deserves better than "speaking generally..."
Do I think QPR supporters are racist, or the club has a racism problem. Absolutely fcking not. Let's get that clear right at the start. I remember Podcast Flo tried to address this Eze issue at the time on Twitter and did so in a rather broad brush strokes way that made it look like she said that and she got absolutely battered for weeks so I want to be really clear. If you look around our support at games, yeh it's male and pale like all football crowds in this country, but it's more diverse than almost anywhere else in the league as far as I can see. We've been accepting of players and people of all backgrounds, never had the problems that Chelsea, Newcastle, Everton had historically as far as I've ever been aware. I wouldn't stand among a group of racist people.
However, as with every group, there is a minority there. It's a tiny minority at QPR, miniscule compared to most clubs, but I have stood in away ends at Luton and Oldham and heard songs about "you mum runs a corner shop". I was in the away end at West Ham a few years ago when a group behind us started singing "Loic Remy Remy, he swings from a fcking tree, he eats with his fcking feet" after he'd gone to Chelsea. Now what happened that day is everybody around them in the away end immediately stopped watching the game, got stuck into them, and told them to pack that the fck in. Which is great. Backs up the point about not having a racist support base. But also, that there is a minority in there that think that sort of thing funny, or acceptable. You only need look around QPR twitter during this BLM movement, the taking of the knee and things like that. Ilias Chair retweets some cartoon along the lines of "if a Muslim kills somebody he's a terrorist, if a white person kills somebody he's got mental health issues" and there are QPR accounts saying he should be fined, sacked, never play for the club again. So it is there, albeit in a tiny minority compared to most other clubs.
The Eze lazy stuff made me uncomfortable for three reasons. 1 - it's not true. He's gone from QPR's U23s to a £20m player in four years. It's not fcking true. 2 - I don't think it's a debate that black players get accused of being lazy, and powerful, more than white players do. John Barnes for England back in the day, classic example. Is it exclusively black players? No, you've pointed that out really well. But there is that tendency there, in general. 3 - There was a non-black player in that team, Tomer Hemed, at exactly the same time, contributing far less, phoning in sick for four months over the winter, going through the motions, with far more experience, costing us far more money, who nobody said a thing about at the same time as I'm hearing "lazy" about a kid of 20 with 60 first team appearances under his belt.
So that's why it's in there, but also why it's only three lines in a 3,000 word piece. I thought it was a thing, from a minority, and a part of his time here, and something worth raising. |
Excellent post.
And the thing is, as Les Ferdinand has been trying to address at the club, it's not enough to just say 'we're not racist'. We have to be anti-racist, and that's a much bigger step. There were lazy steretypes thrown around about Eze, there's no question about that. There's also no question that QPR as a club is not perfect. Les has spoke about how QPR did not welcome black fans when he was a youngster. And like it or not, Leroy Rosenior experienced racism both from QPR fans and QPR players (including a genuine legend) when he was at the club, and had a very unhappy time at LR.
We cannot ever be complacent, and racism, however 'unconscious' in some situations, needs to be spoken about openly. I think you did an excellent job in the article, and also in this post. The terms 'lazy' and 'arrogant' are absolutely applied more readily to black players. You only need to look at the media coverage of the Maguire incident in Greece to see the racism in our media and on social meda. Can you imagine the difference had that been Raheem Sterling? The 'arrogant' term particularly concerns me because I feel there's a real sense there of 'know your place'. We had plenty of fans who despised Richard Langley, for example, based almost purely on how he carried himself (I've met him two or three times and each time he's been a diamond, by the way - but you wouldn't have known that from the invective that used to get yelled at him).
Bit of a rant, but suffice to say, carry on being brave in your writing, Clive. We must not be so naive as to think racism does not exist at our club or among a fanbase that not so long ago quite regularly sang some disgraceful stuff about Didier Drogba. |  |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 10:38 - Aug 29 with 1488 views | Antti_Heinola |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 17:55 - Aug 28 by NW5Hoop |
Les bloody Ferdinand got it, when he was scoring 20 a season.
The attitude of black players is disproportionately questioned across all football. Of course, lots of players get called lazy (by people who never even run for a bus) or immature or not up for it, but it is obvious to anyone that it happens more to black players than white players. Still happens to Raheem Sterling, who has quite plainly worked incredibly hard at his game and incredibly hard during games. And it happens at QPR just as it happens everywhere else — at other clubs, in the press, on TV. Not involving large numbers of fans, but involving enough fans.
Sadly, it's one of those things that needs to be pointed out. Over and over again.
On a wider point, elsewhere in the thread, someone says being black or Asian or whatever shouldn't matter. The thing is, if you are black or Asian or whatever, it does matter, because it is common to get treated differently in lots of different ways. That's why there have been so many interviews with black footballers recently talking about their direct experiences of racism in life and in professional football. It's not up to us as white people to say skin colour doesn't matter. It's up to people who have suffered racism to say when they feel their skin colour no longer matters. Pretending it doesn't allows racism to continue, sadly. [Post edited 28 Aug 2020 18:03]
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Superb post. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 11:02 - Aug 29 with 1457 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 08:56 - Aug 29 by RBlock |
"BAME offenders (particularly male BAME offenders) were more likely to be sentenced to prison than White offenders..., under similar criminal circumstances."
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac
The sauce as well if you're interested. From the Government's own report, not the Guardian or the Mirror. It's one example of Unconscious Bias that you term 'frankly nonsense'. Just because people aren't comparing lads to apes or calling them racial pejoratives doesn't not mean they aren't being treated differently due to their race. It can be hiring the white candidate over the better qualified BAME, for instance, something that occurs far too often.
https://www.wired-gov.net/wg/news.nsf/articles/BAME+IT+workers+better+qualified+
This isn't harmless unconscious bias, using these lazy descriptions of BAME men as "fast and powerful" pigeon holes them, and undermines their value. It feeds into the trope that they are only fast and powerful.
The comments Clive makes are far from baseless. Whilst he comments from his experiences watching football, analysis of language used by commentators, once ratio adjusted, found that 60% of praise for hard work went to white players rather than BAME players. 65% of negative comments about a players quality goes towards BAME players, as do 63% of negative comments about a players intelligence. This is far from baseless. This commentary (another example of unconscious bias, I'm not suggesting Clive Tyldesley is EDL) influences public opinion of these players, and as above, pigeon holes them. Why do you then think we see so few black coaches, when we have such wonderful BAME footballers.
Sauce https://runrepeat.com/racial-bias-study-soccer
This all again feeds into the tired old narrative of black players being lazy, or only fast and powerful. We saw when Souness described Eze as fast and powerful, comparing him to Yaya Toure, when in truth Eze's intelligence, his first touch, his awareness, are all far more important and evident attributes. This is a clear example of systemic racism in football, that permeates all levels of the game.
Frankly nonsense. Okay mate.
[Post edited 29 Aug 2020 9:09]
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Great info, thanks RBlock.
Excellent discussion. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 12:54 - Aug 29 with 1349 views | stevec |
Interesting discussion on both sides of the argument and get the concept of unconscious bias, particularly Hunters good explanation of tackling it.
However, I have a question, genuine because I really don’t know the answer.
If next season say, a black player happens to be having a good or bad game, how do white fans comment on this without it being interpreted as unconscious bias? Should we reserve our comments for white players only?
Not being flippant by the way, I, like virtually everybody else, treat black or white players equally, good or bad, to me they are purely Queens Park Rangers footballers, or at least that’s what I thought.
I know people mean well but enacting double speak is a dangerous game, particularly when the accusers are effectively acting as a higher moral authority, passing judgment on what they perceive as wrongful thought.
In the case of Eze he has a particularly unique style. That some have interpreted that as lazy doesn’t make them right but neither does it give anyone the right to interpret this as anything more sinister.
For the record, a lot of fans used to call Rodney Marsh lazy.
I am sure you meant well Clive but you’re wrong on this. |  | | |
| The end of the beginning — Column on 13:07 - Aug 29 with 1339 views | BrianMcCarthy |
It's a good question. I think we just have to trust ourselves and to trust that others will read nothing into our actions. | |
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| The end of the beginning — Column on 15:37 - Aug 29 with 1251 views | JohnMcCo |
I'd like to think that Eze's astonishing performances and consistency would have made the odd person who suggested he was lazy hold up his hands. I definitely heard it 5 or 6 times in 18/19, I wish I could remember who said it so I could have some quiet words!
Thanks for the piece, an amazing tribute to an amazing talent. There has possibly never been a player that left with so many good wishes. | | | |
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