| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? 23:41 - Oct 20 with 9137 views | Dr_Parnassus |
So we finally now find ourselves in a bit of form.
But there has been a notable shift from 800 passes a game with no willingness to go long to a more mixed direct approach which many were calling for very early on.
An earlier conversation got me thinking, is plan A now dead? For me that would be extremely encouraging.
I will work out the figures now, will post them regardless. But my money is on a distinct downturn in short balls and possession in our wins compared to our ‘non wins’. Here they are:-
Our 4 wins this season:-
Possession: 62.7%
Long ball %: 12.5%
Our 9 winless games this season:-
Possession: 67.2%
Long ball %: 8.1%
Doing these stats it was actually striking how poorly we perform when restricted to short passing.
That’s a 35% decrease in short passes in our wins vs the games we don’t win. That’s gigantic. Our possession also noticeably less in our wins.
It’s very interesting from a statistical stand point that our wins correlate with a more direct approach and I wonder if the Swansea analysts are earning their money and fed that to Martin. There does seem a distinct change.
I’m very grateful that despite what we were told by some, Martin is adaptable and can absolutely bin his plan A when it clearly isn’t bearing fruit.
Deserves credit for that, without question. |  |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:35 - Oct 21 with 1205 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 07:41 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
We put that aside because its an outlier, a team on their worst run since the 1930's who have lost 7 league games in a row.
The norm is when we have such possession, we don't win and barely score. |
You can’t pick and choose matches if you’re going to present stats to back up your theory.  |  |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:39 - Oct 21 with 1196 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:35 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
You can’t pick and choose matches if you’re going to present stats to back up your theory. |
I didn't pick and choose, they were included in the stats.
I was just making the point that they are clearly the exception to the rule because if you discount that game, every other one reverts to those sets of rules.
I thought that was obvious? Maybe I need to post to the lowest common denominator in future to avoid confusion. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:39 - Oct 21 with 1189 views | onehunglow |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:35 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
You can’t pick and choose matches if you’re going to present stats to back up your theory. |
Stat do not tell the whole story.They never have. |  |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:40 - Oct 21 with 1189 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:39 - Oct 21 by onehunglow |
Stat do not tell the whole story.They never have. |
They will tell what they need to tell and often show clearly that many have no idea what they watch. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:41 - Oct 21 with 1187 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 07:44 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
You said something along the lines of you not thinking there was a relation and you would like to see the stats kept up all season to see.
Except you now seem offended when the stats are continuing and keeping the trend which I said would be the case months ago.
He has not stuck to his guns at all, we used to have 5% long balls, play the ball across the back 4 constantly and as a result have around 800 passes.
Now we have around 550 passes, less possession and long balls have tripled. |
So you don’t remember then.
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not offended at all - I haven’t enjoyed one of your threads this much for quite a while.ðŸ‘ðŸ»ðŸ˜‚ | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:41 - Oct 21 with 1180 views | onehunglow |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:40 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
They will tell what they need to tell and often show clearly that many have no idea what they watch. |
Well,it's how one views them.
It's like averages | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:42 - Oct 21 with 1181 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:41 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
So you don’t remember then.
Don’t misunderstand, I’m not offended at all - I haven’t enjoyed one of your threads this much for quite a while.ðŸ‘ðŸ»ðŸ˜‚ |
I don't remember what?
I am glad you aren't offended and am pleased you enjoying me proving to you what you doubted all those weeks ago.
Its clear now isn't it... stick with me kid, you won't go far wrong.  | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:48 - Oct 21 with 1175 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:42 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
I don't remember what?
I am glad you aren't offended and am pleased you enjoying me proving to you what you doubted all those weeks ago.
Its clear now isn't it... stick with me kid, you won't go far wrong. |
You’re making things up. Even when I was agreeing with you back then you found ways to argue with me. The manager will find ways to win football matches, and some matches we will have less possession and more long balls than others but the glaring stat is that even when we have ‘less’ possession we still have more possession than the opposition.
So in summary, we are winning games and dominating possession.
Who’d’ve thunk it, eh? | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:53 - Oct 21 with 1168 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:48 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
You’re making things up. Even when I was agreeing with you back then you found ways to argue with me. The manager will find ways to win football matches, and some matches we will have less possession and more long balls than others but the glaring stat is that even when we have ‘less’ possession we still have more possession than the opposition.
So in summary, we are winning games and dominating possession.
Who’d’ve thunk it, eh? |
No idea what you are talking about.
Having more possession than the opposition was never the discussion point. The discussion point was the difference in 80% possession and 800 short defensive passes, compared to 60% possession and a more pragmatic direct approach.
Having ''more'' than the opposition was never anything remotely discussed.
In summary we are playing a more direct approach with triple the long balls we had at the start of the season, less focus on possession and winning games as a result. Something you seem to have an issue understanding still.
Who’d’ve thunk it, eh? | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 12:07 - Oct 21 with 1163 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:53 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
No idea what you are talking about.
Having more possession than the opposition was never the discussion point. The discussion point was the difference in 80% possession and 800 short defensive passes, compared to 60% possession and a more pragmatic direct approach.
Having ''more'' than the opposition was never anything remotely discussed.
In summary we are playing a more direct approach with triple the long balls we had at the start of the season, less focus on possession and winning games as a result. Something you seem to have an issue understanding still.
Who’d’ve thunk it, eh? |
One of us is misunderstanding, and it ain’t me. You appear to be thinking I said something that I didn’t and until you grasp that you won’t be able to move on. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 12:10 - Oct 21 with 1161 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 12:07 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
One of us is misunderstanding, and it ain’t me. You appear to be thinking I said something that I didn’t and until you grasp that you won’t be able to move on. |
I think that is highly unlikely given our previous conversations Itch, misunderstanding a topic is your forte.
But I am glad you seem to now agree that our best results come with a more direct approach with less pointless possession filling up the stat sheet.
Now only if you agreed all those weeks ago, we would have saved ourselves all this time. If you don't think you disagreed then great, we will agree to disagree on that point - the important thing is you agree now.
Which is wise to do so of course. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 12:23 - Oct 21 with 1149 views | BillyChong |
The mixed style is much better to see. Happy to sit through 10 mins of short passing possession football if it means catching the opposition asleep with a direct ball or two. Piroe was ready for Pato’s ball last night, the WBA had dozed off expecting us to keep it short in our half again. | | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 14:59 - Oct 21 with 1119 views | Flynnidine_Zidownes |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 11:15 - Oct 21 by jackal |
The long ball over the top for Piroe or Laird to run on to has been our most effective weapon for a long time.
The possession football is pretty but usually ends up back with the keeper. Last night it cost us the goal.
A combination of the two, a variety in play, would be the way to go.
Martin's approach is starting to take effect. |
I remember an interview with an ex Man Utd player (can’t remember who, maybe scholes) who was talking about being top of the league and passing the other team off the park. They went in at half time one nil up thinking they had put in a performance and Alex Ferguson absolutely destroyed them because they were so busy pinging passes around they weren’t noticing all the runs Van Persie was making. He told them all, Rooney, giggs, scholes, carrick that if they didn’t start trying to find van persie they’d never play for the club again. | | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 16:12 - Oct 21 with 1086 views | swan_si |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 08:05 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
But we were told there is only a plan A, which was the short passing at all costs game.
And there wasn't at the start, I did extensive post match analysis showing the areas we are losing the ball in and it being due to our insistence to go short. The criticism Martin got was in relation to that and pretty much that alone.
He has since done away with that and we have noticeably gone more long. 35% increase in long balls in our wins and triple the long balls in the current games than the ones being complained about earlier on in the season.
This is exactly what those criticising were calling for. |
who told us there is only a plan A?
What exactly is plan A?
Extensive post match analysis 
You really are entertaining  |  | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:11 - Oct 21 with 1061 views | onehunglow |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 16:12 - Oct 21 by swan_si |
who told us there is only a plan A?
What exactly is plan A?
Extensive post match analysis
You really are entertaining |
Well at least he s different.
Did ya read my positive posts .
I thought of you  | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:23 - Oct 21 with 1053 views | swan_si |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:11 - Oct 21 by onehunglow |
Well at least he s different.
Did ya read my positive posts .
I thought of you |
Its a step in the right direction, so proud of you.  | | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:33 - Oct 21 with 1045 views | onehunglow |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:23 - Oct 21 by swan_si |
Its a step in the right direction, so proud of you. |
One Direction | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 18:05 - Oct 21 with 1027 views | swan_si |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 17:33 - Oct 21 by onehunglow |
One Direction |
Right direction, turn that frown upside down, life's so much easier when you have reason to be happy, embrace it, live long and prosper.  | | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 20:40 - Oct 21 with 993 views | ItchySphincter |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 12:10 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
I think that is highly unlikely given our previous conversations Itch, misunderstanding a topic is your forte.
But I am glad you seem to now agree that our best results come with a more direct approach with less pointless possession filling up the stat sheet.
Now only if you agreed all those weeks ago, we would have saved ourselves all this time. If you don't think you disagreed then great, we will agree to disagree on that point - the important thing is you agree now.
Which is wise to do so of course. |
You said Martin would have to surpass 80 points to better Cooper’s achievement.
That was clearly wrong because, as I stated, if Martin was to get promoted on 79 points it would be a better achievement. You disagreed with my truthful FACT, that is all.
You’re misremembering or trying to deflect to save face and I’d be surprised if there’s anyone here that doesn’t see it.
Happy to clear that up for you.
x | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 21:47 - Oct 21 with 966 views | max936 |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 10:06 - Oct 21 by Flynnidine_Zidownes |
I think it was always part of the plan, hence Bidwell and laird playing almost like wide strikers. It’s only recently we’ve been manoeuvring into positions and having the vision to find them and Piroe. |
Its as simple as this, the team and the manager have grown with each other, players are fitter, patterns of play have had time to gel together, players have got used to the training schedules and this is the result, all about time and doing things right in training to get things right come game time, its just Football there's still a long way to go, but its looking good. |  |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 22:19 - Oct 21 with 958 views | Private_Partz |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 08:05 - Oct 21 by Dr_Parnassus |
But we were told there is only a plan A, which was the short passing at all costs game.
And there wasn't at the start, I did extensive post match analysis showing the areas we are losing the ball in and it being due to our insistence to go short. The criticism Martin got was in relation to that and pretty much that alone.
He has since done away with that and we have noticeably gone more long. 35% increase in long balls in our wins and triple the long balls in the current games than the ones being complained about earlier on in the season.
This is exactly what those criticising were calling for. |
Martin has always promoted the passing game from the off. I have heard him say however that the system has to be tweaked dependant on the oppo as to whether they high press or sit back.
I don't think the passing initiative is on the wane.
Your analysis is much appreciated and for me it shows how the team is evolving.
Whether this is by design or part of Martin's learning curve remains to be seen.
I think we will still see high possession and passing rates whilst RM is in charge. Time will tell. |  |
| You have mission in life to hold out your hand,
To help the other guy out,
Help your fellow man.
Stan Ridgway
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 01:25 - Oct 22 with 912 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 20:40 - Oct 21 by ItchySphincter |
You said Martin would have to surpass 80 points to better Cooper’s achievement.
That was clearly wrong because, as I stated, if Martin was to get promoted on 79 points it would be a better achievement. You disagreed with my truthful FACT, that is all.
You’re misremembering or trying to deflect to save face and I’d be surprised if there’s anyone here that doesn’t see it.
Happy to clear that up for you.
x |
In a non promotion season yes.
Hence why I agreed with you clarifying the promotion point instantly.
You still didn’t understand then and you still don’t now.
Quell surprise. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 01:32 - Oct 22 with 909 views | Dr_Parnassus |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 22:19 - Oct 21 by Private_Partz |
Martin has always promoted the passing game from the off. I have heard him say however that the system has to be tweaked dependant on the oppo as to whether they high press or sit back.
I don't think the passing initiative is on the wane.
Your analysis is much appreciated and for me it shows how the team is evolving.
Whether this is by design or part of Martin's learning curve remains to be seen.
I think we will still see high possession and passing rates whilst RM is in charge. Time will tell. |
Passing game is a very broad term. Martinez’ style, Rodgers style, Potters style, Laudrups style, Sousa style…. they can all be described as “a passing game” but all wildly different to each other.
So just because we still are a passing side, doesn’t mean it hasn’t drastically changed. This is a completely different passing game to the one we saw at the start. Completely different.
It’s not a case of the same one “just better” as some people are bizarrely saying.
We will see high possession and high passing, we see this in every passing side. But we won’t be seeing 4% long balls again and we probably won’t be seeing 800 passes again.
They were both products of an ineffective game plan which sacrificed attacking direct intent for possession in non threatening areas. We don’t do that anymore and that’s the major change - and of course the one being called for.
I have asked everyone if they would like a Gentleman’s bet that we see neither again this season - not a single person has taken me up on that.
That’s telling in itself. They know I’m right but just don’t want to admit it. | |
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| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 07:54 - Nov 25 with 725 views | 34dfgdf54 |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 01:32 - Oct 22 by Dr_Parnassus |
Passing game is a very broad term. Martinez’ style, Rodgers style, Potters style, Laudrups style, Sousa style…. they can all be described as “a passing game” but all wildly different to each other.
So just because we still are a passing side, doesn’t mean it hasn’t drastically changed. This is a completely different passing game to the one we saw at the start. Completely different.
It’s not a case of the same one “just better” as some people are bizarrely saying.
We will see high possession and high passing, we see this in every passing side. But we won’t be seeing 4% long balls again and we probably won’t be seeing 800 passes again.
They were both products of an ineffective game plan which sacrificed attacking direct intent for possession in non threatening areas. We don’t do that anymore and that’s the major change - and of course the one being called for.
I have asked everyone if they would like a Gentleman’s bet that we see neither again this season - not a single person has taken me up on that.
That’s telling in itself. They know I’m right but just don’t want to admit it. |
<<That’s telling in itself. They know I’m right but just don’t want to admit it.>>
How many passes was that yest doc? |  | | |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 08:40 - Nov 25 with 687 views | magicdaps10 |
| Long balls vs forced short passing - is plan A dead? on 07:54 - Nov 25 by 34dfgdf54 |
<<That’s telling in itself. They know I’m right but just don’t want to admit it.>>
How many passes was that yest doc? |
Well after it was said that we would probably not see 800 passes again, lo and hold we did see more than that amount last night so that "myth" can now be put to bed and that can be "filed" under wrong.
Some fans are getting it, some not.....clearly the ones who have called for patience are the ones who are understanding of the plan. |  |
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