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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 19:14 - Aug 4 by Aunt_Nelly
Complex issue but I believe it boils down to one thing . Prejudice.
No doubt it's a terrible situation in Gaza but at any time there is far worse sht going on in the world, and particularly in the middle east. Right now Afghanistan, Syria, Libya, Iraq are on fire and ISIS are a huge threat and commiting horrific atrocities daily but nobody gives a fck. I believe it's because those conflicts don't involve Jews. Many people just don't like them.
Then on the Israeli side you have a nation born out of prejudice and thousands of years persecution. They fought for and won back their homeland. Literally drew a line in the sand, said "Never again. Here we stand or die" and have been fighting to hold it ever since. With billions of arabs on their doorstep who want to drive them into the sea they have no choice but to react aggressively to any perceived threat. Show any weakness and they'll be toast. It's probably a good thing for the rest of us because you can be sure if they ever come close to being overrun they won't hesitate in turning that corner of the world into a inhabitable radioactive desert.
[Post edited 4 Aug 2014 20:36]
I'm quite sure a lot of criticism of Israel does indeed come from prejudice. But I used to be totally pro-Israeli and now I'm not now, so that's not prejudice.
Firstly, I do give more than a f*ck about all those conflicts you mention. I also cared deeply about Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland, and the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine, to name but three. I can't be alone either; they are all widely reported. People marched through the streets over Iraq. This country sent warplanes to attack Libya; the US is assisting the Iraqi govt vs ISIS. Our troops are still in Afghanistan, as are the US in larger numbers. We are applying sanctions against Russia over the airliner. So people do care. It really isn't an "either or". I think it's a convenient fiction for Israel to say "it's only us that gets stick." Quite bluntly, anyone here over the age of 30 was alive during the NI troubles - can anyone imagine what would have gone off in the rest of the world if we had bombed Sinn Fein offices in the Falls Road or shelled Dundalk? We certainly wouldn't have got US backing in the UN afterwards. On the contrary, Israel gets away with stuff that we, or the yanks, or even the Russians, would get crucified for. I think Israel needs to stop blaming things on prejudice and start facing up to moral consequences.
Secondly, in all of those conflicts both sides are fairly evenly matched. Israel vs Gaza, or vs the West Bank or Lebanon for that matter, is nothing of the sort. There was much, much more sympathy for Israel when it was fighting Egypt and Syria, and rightly so. There is certainly no way that Hamas is going to drive Israel into the sea, however much they might want to.
Thirdly, and I speak as someone who still has some sympathy with Israel, it's such a bloody stupid tactic. I've lost count of how many times Israel has tried this tactic. It hasn't worked. They really do have a choice; they could try talking to Hamas, same as we did with Sinn Fein. The NI peace process began roughly the same time as the Oslo accords; look which has been more successful.
Israel has only existed for 66 years. At roughly that length of time the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem was doing pretty well too. That ended up being wiped from the map once the Arabs got their act together. I really fear the same happening to Israel one day. I wish to God they would try regarding their neighbours as neighbours, rather than as people who implacably want to drive them into the sea. Otherwise, one day they will. And that will be worse than Gaza, and yes, I will care if I'm still about.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:36 - Aug 4 with 1981 views
RAB, I'm not going to get into repeating my reasoning again. You disagree. Fine. I don't care if you agree with me or not. I respect your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to one. It's a shame you don't respect mine, but I won't lose sleep over it.
What I will say is your accusation in a post earlier of me being anti-Semitic is totally out of order. I am not and never have been. None of what I've said has been anti-Semitic. Anti-Zionist, at a stretch, but not anti-Semitic. That is a big big accusation to throw around and very insulting. If you're going to throw those sort of insults about, there really is no point in engaging with you.
NW5, I completely agree about the distinction between Judaism and Israel. I expected someone to string me up for not explaining myself well enough. All I was trying to explain was that as Zionism focused on a "Jewish" homeland, if I were Jewish, I would be ashamed of the actions employed by Israeli leaders employing Zionist policies, by definition, in the name of my religion.
I absolutely wasn't saying Israel and Judaism were one and the same. Just this weekend I had an argument with someone who was failing to delineate between the two. I just was trying to say, if I were Jewish, I think I'd be upset about how my religion was used as the basis of a militant, secular cause/approach. That's my personal opinion.
Put a different way, if Jews across the world were to speak up against the actions of the Israeli govt, which of course some have, it would undermine the Israeli govt somewhat. Clearly, it would be far more powerful if Israelis were to speak up against their govt's actions. But, given so many Jewish people have dual nationality (Israeli and American, for example) splitting their time between countries, and not living there at this moment, I still think them speaking out would have relevance.
To be clear I do not and was not saying Israel and Judaism were one and the same. They're not. Hope that's clearer.
1
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:39 - Aug 4 with 1979 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:06 - Aug 4 by CiderwithRsie
I'm quite sure a lot of criticism of Israel does indeed come from prejudice. But I used to be totally pro-Israeli and now I'm not now, so that's not prejudice.
Firstly, I do give more than a f*ck about all those conflicts you mention. I also cared deeply about Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland, and the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine, to name but three. I can't be alone either; they are all widely reported. People marched through the streets over Iraq. This country sent warplanes to attack Libya; the US is assisting the Iraqi govt vs ISIS. Our troops are still in Afghanistan, as are the US in larger numbers. We are applying sanctions against Russia over the airliner. So people do care. It really isn't an "either or". I think it's a convenient fiction for Israel to say "it's only us that gets stick." Quite bluntly, anyone here over the age of 30 was alive during the NI troubles - can anyone imagine what would have gone off in the rest of the world if we had bombed Sinn Fein offices in the Falls Road or shelled Dundalk? We certainly wouldn't have got US backing in the UN afterwards. On the contrary, Israel gets away with stuff that we, or the yanks, or even the Russians, would get crucified for. I think Israel needs to stop blaming things on prejudice and start facing up to moral consequences.
Secondly, in all of those conflicts both sides are fairly evenly matched. Israel vs Gaza, or vs the West Bank or Lebanon for that matter, is nothing of the sort. There was much, much more sympathy for Israel when it was fighting Egypt and Syria, and rightly so. There is certainly no way that Hamas is going to drive Israel into the sea, however much they might want to.
Thirdly, and I speak as someone who still has some sympathy with Israel, it's such a bloody stupid tactic. I've lost count of how many times Israel has tried this tactic. It hasn't worked. They really do have a choice; they could try talking to Hamas, same as we did with Sinn Fein. The NI peace process began roughly the same time as the Oslo accords; look which has been more successful.
Israel has only existed for 66 years. At roughly that length of time the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem was doing pretty well too. That ended up being wiped from the map once the Arabs got their act together. I really fear the same happening to Israel one day. I wish to God they would try regarding their neighbours as neighbours, rather than as people who implacably want to drive them into the sea. Otherwise, one day they will. And that will be worse than Gaza, and yes, I will care if I'm still about.
Very good post.
I'm finding it harder and harder to keep a sense of "balance" considering what is happening at the moment.
Considering how advanced Israel's military technology is, I don't know what is worse: claiming to hit these targets intentionally or through incompetence.
It's got to be Yarg
1
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 03:14 - Aug 5 with 1933 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:36 - Aug 4 by Hunterhoop
RAB, I'm not going to get into repeating my reasoning again. You disagree. Fine. I don't care if you agree with me or not. I respect your opinion and you're perfectly entitled to one. It's a shame you don't respect mine, but I won't lose sleep over it.
What I will say is your accusation in a post earlier of me being anti-Semitic is totally out of order. I am not and never have been. None of what I've said has been anti-Semitic. Anti-Zionist, at a stretch, but not anti-Semitic. That is a big big accusation to throw around and very insulting. If you're going to throw those sort of insults about, there really is no point in engaging with you.
NW5, I completely agree about the distinction between Judaism and Israel. I expected someone to string me up for not explaining myself well enough. All I was trying to explain was that as Zionism focused on a "Jewish" homeland, if I were Jewish, I would be ashamed of the actions employed by Israeli leaders employing Zionist policies, by definition, in the name of my religion.
I absolutely wasn't saying Israel and Judaism were one and the same. Just this weekend I had an argument with someone who was failing to delineate between the two. I just was trying to say, if I were Jewish, I think I'd be upset about how my religion was used as the basis of a militant, secular cause/approach. That's my personal opinion.
Put a different way, if Jews across the world were to speak up against the actions of the Israeli govt, which of course some have, it would undermine the Israeli govt somewhat. Clearly, it would be far more powerful if Israelis were to speak up against their govt's actions. But, given so many Jewish people have dual nationality (Israeli and American, for example) splitting their time between countries, and not living there at this moment, I still think them speaking out would have relevance.
To be clear I do not and was not saying Israel and Judaism were one and the same. They're not. Hope that's clearer.
There there Hunter. No need to repeat you're reasoning. I understand and respect it; so much so that I've completely dismantled it.
-2
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 07:34 - Aug 5 with 1880 views
There was an Israeli soldier talking on TV the other day and he was basically saying that he had 'saved lives' through being selective about who he was killing. That just about summed it up for me.
Without a massive effort by the UN and the USA nothing will change for the better. Hamas needs to either be isolated or to become predominantly political and passive. The Israelis simply need to stop killing people and to allow the Palestinians some hope. Without hope you have nothing at all to lose. I suspect that many of the Gazians who could leave have left, over the years. The same goes for the Israelis who didn't find it an attractive proposition. You end up with a disproportionate number of people who aren't willing or able to do much to change the staus quo. It's not their fault - they inherited it and they aren't exactly best equipped to change it, so they all need help, one way or the other.
The stupidity of what the Israelis are doing is self evident. The policy is clearly not working, for the last 60 years they have aggressively attacked people ie 1 Israeli killed , a whole village bombed. They don.t seem to realise that with every atrocity committed they are creating a whole new generation of militants/suicide bombers. I mean, if you've just seen your family literally blown to pieces by an Israeli bomb what would you feel like doing? And so it goes on.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:21 - Aug 5 with 1786 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 23:06 - Aug 4 by CiderwithRsie
I'm quite sure a lot of criticism of Israel does indeed come from prejudice. But I used to be totally pro-Israeli and now I'm not now, so that's not prejudice.
Firstly, I do give more than a f*ck about all those conflicts you mention. I also cared deeply about Yugoslavia, and Northern Ireland, and the Malaysian airliner over Ukraine, to name but three. I can't be alone either; they are all widely reported. People marched through the streets over Iraq. This country sent warplanes to attack Libya; the US is assisting the Iraqi govt vs ISIS. Our troops are still in Afghanistan, as are the US in larger numbers. We are applying sanctions against Russia over the airliner. So people do care. It really isn't an "either or". I think it's a convenient fiction for Israel to say "it's only us that gets stick." Quite bluntly, anyone here over the age of 30 was alive during the NI troubles - can anyone imagine what would have gone off in the rest of the world if we had bombed Sinn Fein offices in the Falls Road or shelled Dundalk? We certainly wouldn't have got US backing in the UN afterwards. On the contrary, Israel gets away with stuff that we, or the yanks, or even the Russians, would get crucified for. I think Israel needs to stop blaming things on prejudice and start facing up to moral consequences.
Secondly, in all of those conflicts both sides are fairly evenly matched. Israel vs Gaza, or vs the West Bank or Lebanon for that matter, is nothing of the sort. There was much, much more sympathy for Israel when it was fighting Egypt and Syria, and rightly so. There is certainly no way that Hamas is going to drive Israel into the sea, however much they might want to.
Thirdly, and I speak as someone who still has some sympathy with Israel, it's such a bloody stupid tactic. I've lost count of how many times Israel has tried this tactic. It hasn't worked. They really do have a choice; they could try talking to Hamas, same as we did with Sinn Fein. The NI peace process began roughly the same time as the Oslo accords; look which has been more successful.
Israel has only existed for 66 years. At roughly that length of time the crusader kingdom of Jerusalem was doing pretty well too. That ended up being wiped from the map once the Arabs got their act together. I really fear the same happening to Israel one day. I wish to God they would try regarding their neighbours as neighbours, rather than as people who implacably want to drive them into the sea. Otherwise, one day they will. And that will be worse than Gaza, and yes, I will care if I'm still about.
It'll come as no surprise I disagree with most of your views on the wider Middle East. However that's probably best for another thread so let's get to to the crux of the matter and I'll ask yourself and all the other LFW Hamas supporters a couple of questions.
Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
Do you believe every nation has the right to defend themselves?
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 10:23]
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:38 - Aug 5 with 1763 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:21 - Aug 5 by Aunt_Nelly
It'll come as no surprise I disagree with most of your views on the wider Middle East. However that's probably best for another thread so let's get to to the crux of the matter and I'll ask yourself and all the other LFW Hamas supporters a couple of questions.
Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
Do you believe every nation has the right to defend themselves?
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 10:23]
I'm not answering as a Hamas or Israel 'supporter' if you want to use such a soppy word, but I will respond anyway
Does Israel have the right to exist? Yes - but it would be helpful if it defined and agreed with Palestine as to what Israel is and by definition what Palestine is, rather than having bits and pieces of Israel all over the place. It's like Camden Market at the moment.
Every nation has the right to defend itself - but it's harder to do that when what you defend yourself against doesn't actually exist in any coherent form.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:43 - Aug 5 with 1762 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:21 - Aug 5 by Aunt_Nelly
It'll come as no surprise I disagree with most of your views on the wider Middle East. However that's probably best for another thread so let's get to to the crux of the matter and I'll ask yourself and all the other LFW Hamas supporters a couple of questions.
Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
Do you believe every nation has the right to defend themselves?
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 10:23]
Yes, Israel has a right to exist.
Yes, Israel has a right to defend itself.
No, I do not support Hamas. I don't believe many do. The PLO and Fatah were a different, more diplomatic, kettle of fish.
The issue is how Israel is choosing to defend itself. It's bordering on more than "defence" and isn't particularly targeted at the threat. It's also further radicalising youths in the region, thus actually increasing the threats to its citizens in the long term. Finally, the way it defends itself shows a complete disregard for the lives of Palestinian civilians. That is the crux of the issue.
Can we please get away from this nonsensical rhetoric that if you criticise Israel you are automatically anti-Semitic and you support Hamas. It's quite possible to disagree and criticise Israeli policy and actions, have huge empathy with Palestinians AND NOT be Anti-Semetic and not support Hamas.
6
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:29 - Aug 5 with 1717 views
I believe Mrs Cameron is a special envoy for the UK charity that wants to save children. There must be some interesting conversations over breakfast in that house on the subject.
I believe Mrs Cameron is a special envoy for the UK charity that wants to save children. There must be some interesting conversations over breakfast in that house on the subject.
If I recall correctly Hamas has been sending rockets into Israel for several months. Israel has only taken action, reluctantly, in the last month.
If rockets were being fired at Dublin, threatening the lives of its inhabitants, what action would this senator like his government to take?
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:21 - Aug 5 by Aunt_Nelly
It'll come as no surprise I disagree with most of your views on the wider Middle East. However that's probably best for another thread so let's get to to the crux of the matter and I'll ask yourself and all the other LFW Hamas supporters a couple of questions.
Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
Do you believe every nation has the right to defend themselves?
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 10:23]
Israel does defend itself - the US funded Iron Dome.
Is still targeting places with women and children defending themselves? Is building illegal settlements defending themselves? What about being in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein?
From someone acting in self defence, they don't half look a lot like aggressors?
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:40 - Aug 5 with 1660 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 11:55 - Aug 5 by robith
Israel does defend itself - the US funded Iron Dome.
Is still targeting places with women and children defending themselves? Is building illegal settlements defending themselves? What about being in violation of more UN resolutions than Saddam Hussein?
From someone acting in self defence, they don't half look a lot like aggressors?
Israel is very sorry that more of its civilians have not died, but it is doing its best to protect them, as you would hope any government would do faced with this situation.
And yes, so the Iron Dome system has some US funding, but as your stats show they only take out a small percentage of the rockets. Fortunately the rest either miss their targets or hit ones that have been successfully evacuated. But with all the aid money Hamas is spending on weapons, tunnels, etc. (rather than the well-being of the people they are supposed to govern), can Israel afford just to sit back, rely on (the very expensive) Iron Dome and hope that Hamas' rocket technology does not improve?
Why does no one seem to understand that Hamas is putting its own people in danger? All their activities are deeply embedded within their population under cover of schools, hospitals and mosques. Israel is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties in an area that is extremely difficult to operate in. Colonel Richard Kemp–a British expert on this kind of warfare–has said: that Israel it is doing it more carefully and with more concern for civilian life that any other country. The Israeli military devotes considerable resources to trying to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas devotes its resources to trying to maximize both Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas it's a win-win situation, they prevent civilians from evacuating and tragically some get hurt in the cross fire, images get sent around the world and the Western media immediately points the finger at Israel.
Hamas' aim is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic State, and if the blood of their own people is shed along the way, so be it. They are no different in this respect from ISIS, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hizbollah, Al Shabaab and other fundamentalist groups.
I'm sick of this conflict, I really am. All I, and any right-thinking person wants, is peace. Since independence in 1948 all Israel has wanted is to live in peace and prosperity with its neighbours, and it deeply saddens me, nearly 70 years on, that Israelis and Palestinians still cannot live side by side in peace. I live in the hope that one day, that will happen.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 10:21 - Aug 5 by Aunt_Nelly
It'll come as no surprise I disagree with most of your views on the wider Middle East. However that's probably best for another thread so let's get to to the crux of the matter and I'll ask yourself and all the other LFW Hamas supporters a couple of questions.
Do you believe Israel has the right to exist?
Do you believe every nation has the right to defend themselves?
[Post edited 5 Aug 2014 10:23]
I'm not a supporter of Hamas and I defy you to find a word of support for Hamas in what I've said. I've criticised Israel; that's the difference. And the lie that anyone who criticises Israel in even the most measured terms is anti-semitic or a supporter of terrorism is one of the things that fuels the argument. You should withdraw that statement or substantiate it
But yes, I do believe in Israel's right to exist, specifically within the borders set out by the UN in 1948, maybe within the larger area of the ceasefire line of 1967 or some larger territory still, if agreed by negotiation. I've not said anything to the contrary. Gaza is not, on any definition, within those limits; nor is the West Bank; and I totally disagree with the right if Israel to invade countries outside its borders except in response to a clear military threat. And part of the pay-off for Israel's right to exists is the right of a Palestinian state to exist. The alternative would be a single state with full citizen right s for all Arabs and no special treatment under law for Jewish people, which IMO might have ben a better approach from the start. But Israel opposes every attempt to recognise such a state in the UN and is backed up by US veto.
Do you accept the right of Palestine to exist? If not, why not?
And yes, I do support the right of Israel to defend itself. It's not doing that. I defend the right of the UK to defend itself, but I repeat, when the IRA were launching attacks on British soldiers from the territory of he Irish Republic, which they did with the intention of driving the British into the Irish Sea, it did not justify Britain attacking Ireland with artillery, tanks, warplanes and warships. It would have been disproportionate. And also, it wouldn't have worked, any more than Israel's tactics in Gaza have worked or will work. Do you support the right of Palestinians to defend themselves from seizures of their land on occupied territory, or against an economic blockade designed to starve them into submission? If not, how would you expect Israel to react to a similar treatment?
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:54 - Aug 5 with 1592 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 12:40 - Aug 5 by TheChef
Israel is very sorry that more of its civilians have not died, but it is doing its best to protect them, as you would hope any government would do faced with this situation.
And yes, so the Iron Dome system has some US funding, but as your stats show they only take out a small percentage of the rockets. Fortunately the rest either miss their targets or hit ones that have been successfully evacuated. But with all the aid money Hamas is spending on weapons, tunnels, etc. (rather than the well-being of the people they are supposed to govern), can Israel afford just to sit back, rely on (the very expensive) Iron Dome and hope that Hamas' rocket technology does not improve?
Why does no one seem to understand that Hamas is putting its own people in danger? All their activities are deeply embedded within their population under cover of schools, hospitals and mosques. Israel is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties in an area that is extremely difficult to operate in. Colonel Richard Kemp–a British expert on this kind of warfare–has said: that Israel it is doing it more carefully and with more concern for civilian life that any other country. The Israeli military devotes considerable resources to trying to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas devotes its resources to trying to maximize both Israeli and Palestinian civilians.
So for Hamas it's a win-win situation, they prevent civilians from evacuating and tragically some get hurt in the cross fire, images get sent around the world and the Western media immediately points the finger at Israel.
Hamas' aim is the destruction of Israel and the establishment of an Islamic State, and if the blood of their own people is shed along the way, so be it. They are no different in this respect from ISIS, Islamic Jihad, Boko Haram, Hizbollah, Al Shabaab and other fundamentalist groups.
I'm sick of this conflict, I really am. All I, and any right-thinking person wants, is peace. Since independence in 1948 all Israel has wanted is to live in peace and prosperity with its neighbours, and it deeply saddens me, nearly 70 years on, that Israelis and Palestinians still cannot live side by side in peace. I live in the hope that one day, that will happen.
"Why does no one seem to understand that Hamas is putting its own people in danger? All their activities are deeply embedded within their population under cover of schools, hospitals and mosques. "
Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on Earth. So this is true by default.
"The Israeli military devotes considerable resources to trying to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas devotes its resources to trying to maximize both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. "
What do you mean by "Hamas devotes it resources trying to maximize... Palestinian [casualties]", as I assume you mean?
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 14:45 - Aug 5 with 1548 views
This is what Israel are dealing with, namely moving targets operating from mosques, hospitals, schools etc. There is no comparable that can be made with the Irish situation. Here are terrorists showing no regard for the lives of their own people, moving their rockets between residential premises in the knowledge that every strike against them is a PR success for the world's gullible. There has been no news coverage of militants killed or rockets destroyed. The only coverage has been of the civilian deaths. Has Hamas lost no 'soldiers'? I can;t find any mention of this in any coverage I have read. And not enough is made of the fact that millions of pounds in aid has been diverted away from the needy in order to build at least 32 large tunnels, encased in concrete with power supplies etc, the only purpose of which is to enter into Israel behind enemy lines and commit murder.
Gaza: In the minutes before the ceasefire kicked in at Gaza this morning, Hamas fired a flurry of rockets towards Israel - 30 according to some counts.
Israel has argued that that these rockets are fired from civilian areas, and this is why its retaliatory strikes can result in civilian casualties.
But this morning, NDTV witnessed one such rocket silo being created under a tent right next to the hotel where our team was staying. Minutes later, we saw the rocket being fired, just before the 72-hour ceasefire came into effect.
It began with a mysterious tent with a blue canopy that bobbed up yesterday (August 4) at 6:30 am in an open patch of land next to our window. We saw three men making a multitude of journeys in and out of the tent, sometimes with wires.
An hour later, they emerged, dismantled the tent, changed their clothes and walked away.
The next morning - today - we woke to news of the 72-hour ceasefire but just before it was to take effect, the rocket next to our hotel was fired. There was a loud explosion and a whooshing sound. The cloud of smoke that rose was captured by our cameraperson.
This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 13:54 - Aug 5 by FDC
"Why does no one seem to understand that Hamas is putting its own people in danger? All their activities are deeply embedded within their population under cover of schools, hospitals and mosques. "
Gaza is one of the most densely populated areas on Earth. So this is true by default.
"The Israeli military devotes considerable resources to trying to minimize Palestinian civilian casualties, while Hamas devotes its resources to trying to maximize both Israeli and Palestinian civilians. "
What do you mean by "Hamas devotes it resources trying to maximize... Palestinian [casualties]", as I assume you mean?
There is also no evidence at all in the "human shields" line pushed aggresively by Israeli PR
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:15 - Aug 5 with 1484 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 15:40 - Aug 5 by robith
There is also no evidence at all in the "human shields" line pushed aggresively by Israeli PR
Would the people of Gaza be in this tragic position if Hamas were absent? If they were led by people who had their best interests at heart, to create a fully functioning society? Rather than focusing all the aid received and all their efforts on destroying Israel and building an Islamic state?
As I said, all I want is peace. We have a three day ceasefire, talks are taking place in Egypt, let us all hope that some progress can be made towards a better future for Palestinians, Israelis and the region as a whole.
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 14:45 - Aug 5 by N12Hoop
This is what Israel are dealing with, namely moving targets operating from mosques, hospitals, schools etc. There is no comparable that can be made with the Irish situation. Here are terrorists showing no regard for the lives of their own people, moving their rockets between residential premises in the knowledge that every strike against them is a PR success for the world's gullible. There has been no news coverage of militants killed or rockets destroyed. The only coverage has been of the civilian deaths. Has Hamas lost no 'soldiers'? I can;t find any mention of this in any coverage I have read. And not enough is made of the fact that millions of pounds in aid has been diverted away from the needy in order to build at least 32 large tunnels, encased in concrete with power supplies etc, the only purpose of which is to enter into Israel behind enemy lines and commit murder.
Gaza: In the minutes before the ceasefire kicked in at Gaza this morning, Hamas fired a flurry of rockets towards Israel - 30 according to some counts.
Israel has argued that that these rockets are fired from civilian areas, and this is why its retaliatory strikes can result in civilian casualties.
But this morning, NDTV witnessed one such rocket silo being created under a tent right next to the hotel where our team was staying. Minutes later, we saw the rocket being fired, just before the 72-hour ceasefire came into effect.
It began with a mysterious tent with a blue canopy that bobbed up yesterday (August 4) at 6:30 am in an open patch of land next to our window. We saw three men making a multitude of journeys in and out of the tent, sometimes with wires.
An hour later, they emerged, dismantled the tent, changed their clothes and walked away.
The next morning - today - we woke to news of the 72-hour ceasefire but just before it was to take effect, the rocket next to our hotel was fired. There was a loud explosion and a whooshing sound. The cloud of smoke that rose was captured by our cameraperson.
This report is being aired on NDTV and published on ndtv.com after our team left the Gaza strip - Hamas has not taken very kindly to any reporting of its rockets being fired. But just as we reported the devastating consequences of Israel's offensive on Gaza's civilians, it is equally important to report on how Hamas places those very civilians at risk by firing rockets deep from the heart of civilian zones.
Are people surprised by some of the tactics used by Hamas? Hiding in schools, mosques, mixing with civilians, carrying out unexpected attacks when the opposition aren’t expecting it etc. Seriously, what do people expect? Hamas to stand toe-to-toe with one of the most sophisticated and capable military forces in the world, funded by America (the most powerful military force in the world). I’m not saying it’s right, but that’s the only chance Hamas have in a fight. A fair fight and they’re obliterated.
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:44 - Aug 5 with 1447 views
Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 16:15 - Aug 5 by TheChef
Would the people of Gaza be in this tragic position if Hamas were absent? If they were led by people who had their best interests at heart, to create a fully functioning society? Rather than focusing all the aid received and all their efforts on destroying Israel and building an Islamic state?
As I said, all I want is peace. We have a three day ceasefire, talks are taking place in Egypt, let us all hope that some progress can be made towards a better future for Palestinians, Israelis and the region as a whole.
Did you know that Israeli students are paid to scour the internet looking for discussions about the occupation of Palestine and post Israeli propaganda? Of course you did, you're clearly one of them. Are you getting a wage or a full scholarship for your work?
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Barton and Yossi in twitter spat on 17:46 - Aug 5 with 1411 views
Israel — A highly skilled and technical military, capable of annihilating the opposition. Given past events they are a country determined to exist. They don’t feel liked and live in fear of attack. Everything they do is driven by fear — ‘You hit me and I’ll hit you ten times harder’. Residents of Gaza (including Hamas) — Poorly educated, live in extreme poverty, military (if you can call it that) poorly organised, relying on sporadic forms of attack — ‘I’ll hit you and I know you’ll come after me ten times harder but I’ll still do it anyway’.
The security obsessed, fear driven Israelis’ versus the uneducated, poorly treated population of Gaza. For the conflict to ever have a chance of ending, as brave as it would be to do (both politically and militarily), someone has to ‘be the bigger person’ and not respond with force, and clearly that person has to be Israel.
Unfortunately Israel is a nation suspicious of anything that weakens its defence, it will never let its guard down and risk being ‘driven into the sea’. To negotiate and accept peace which will likely lead to casualties (in the short to medium term at least) is unacceptable to them. They see negotiating as allowing the opposition to re-arm and develop before further, more sophisticated attacks take place. You can argue the case for this. However, I think it’s a lack of confidence. Israel doesn’t have the confidence that over time it can win friends, it can persuade other nations that they are there to partner and live with rather than fight. No, for Israel its much safer and easier to put up a wall, repel any threat via extreme force and rely on the support of the Americans for any action they take. Sometimes bombing the sh*t out of a densely civilian populated area, isn’t the best way to respond to a rocket fired onto your land. Talking with your enemies, offering olive branches, opening up dialogue, these methods are so much more effective then reverting to military attacks.
Remove check-points, open up dialogue, stop bombings, allow Arabs and Israeli’s to work together much more closely, look to set-up joint working groups, as much as I’d like to see this kind of action it will never happen as for Israel, it increases the threat against them, but for me it opens up the possibility of peace.
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