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Covid Postponements 12:53 - Dec 23 with 22630 viewsboromat

4 games off this weekend in League One due to Covid-19 infiltrating football club 'bubbles'.

This doesn't bode well for the season I think we're lucky there's not been too many called off due to weather so far but there could be some pile up of fixtures if this is what we are to expect every week. I know there's been talking of a football circuit breaker. I'm not sure how that would work.

Poll: What are we more excited for?

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Covid Postponements on 19:18 - Jan 5 with 2278 viewsJames1980

Covid Postponements on 18:55 - Jan 5 by Thacks_Rabbits

I have been drinking sasperella and liquorice root and eating coltsfoot rock most days and I have not had it yet. It’s baffling to medical science.


Sasaparella! Is there gold in them thaarrr hills?

'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Poll: Is moving to a new location

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Covid Postponements on 19:35 - Jan 5 with 2235 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 16:34 - Jan 5 by nordenblue

How very dare you, you've a lot to learn about this forum and how some can never be wrong


You're starting to sound like kiwidale now

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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Covid Postponements on 19:52 - Jan 5 with 2195 viewsTVOS1907

Covid Postponements on 19:35 - Jan 5 by D_Alien

You're starting to sound like kiwidale now


Who?

Undoubted knowledge? Or just the application of common sense and using my brain?

1
Covid Postponements on 20:01 - Jan 5 with 2175 viewsJames1980

Covid Postponements on 19:52 - Jan 5 by TVOS1907

Who?


Dale23years hasn't been on for a while thinking about it or I have missed their posts

'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Poll: Is moving to a new location

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Covid Postponements on 20:08 - Jan 5 with 2164 viewsnordenblue

Covid Postponements on 19:35 - Jan 5 by D_Alien

You're starting to sound like kiwidale now


Only now?

Dont worry your precious little self everyone else is always in the wrong anyway, I might need to use the NHS soon am I ok if i run it by you beforehand just to see if I qualify?
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Covid Postponements on 20:14 - Jan 5 with 2146 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 20:08 - Jan 5 by nordenblue

Only now?

Dont worry your precious little self everyone else is always in the wrong anyway, I might need to use the NHS soon am I ok if i run it by you beforehand just to see if I qualify?


You will need to if you follow 49th's path, which one can only assume from your earlier contribution

Or was it just trolling?

Hence my kiwidale reference

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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Covid Postponements on 21:07 - Jan 5 with 2064 viewsnordenblue

Covid Postponements on 20:14 - Jan 5 by D_Alien

You will need to if you follow 49th's path, which one can only assume from your earlier contribution

Or was it just trolling?

Hence my kiwidale reference


As long as I've got your blessing for any treatment I may require I'm over the moon with that....... thanks
[Post edited 5 Jan 2021 21:07]
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Covid Postponements on 21:12 - Jan 5 with 2051 viewsTVOS1907

Covid Postponements on 20:01 - Jan 5 by James1980

Dale23years hasn't been on for a while thinking about it or I have missed their posts


No, we haven't played for a few weeks, ergo we haven't failed to win.

Undoubted knowledge? Or just the application of common sense and using my brain?

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Covid Postponements on 21:21 - Jan 5 with 2039 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 21:07 - Jan 5 by nordenblue

As long as I've got your blessing for any treatment I may require I'm over the moon with that....... thanks
[Post edited 5 Jan 2021 21:07]


Yup, just trolling

You're not as good as kiwi, though

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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Covid Postponements on 22:07 - Jan 5 with 1988 views49thseason

Covid Postponements on 23:00 - Jan 4 by OxDale

You can see the data on which authorisation for each vaccine was given, below, warts and all:
Oxford/AZ
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac

And
Pfizer
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attac

I will be driving my elderly father to the vaccination centre later in the week.


Thanks for these links, I'm sure you will have realised that they represent a "temporary" authorisation , not a permit to sell these vaccines to all and sundry, Temporary because they feel the risk of Covid 19 is greater than any risk posed by the vaccine. These permits only take into account the data up to the date of the authorisation or about 140days of injecting half the volunteer cohorts (the other half got a placebo)..

A complete new drug submission to the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or any other National approval body, often runs to 1000s of pages and can cost millions of Dollars to complete, These 12 or 13 pages of information are the very bare bones of the information gathered from a short trial albeit with decent numbers of people. AZ admit that they will not have proper data from the complete Phase 3 trial until 2023.

BTW . My 92 year old MiL has had her first dose already and I am sure your elderly Father will be fine, but there is risk and like so many drugs in the past, it might only be the passage of time that uncovers problems as yet unseen or even thought of. This US article outlines some of the problems that come to light only when a new drug is prescribed to the general population. My view is that the risk to my MiL from the Vax and that of Covid are probably on the side of the vaccine but as we get to younger people where so very few fit people have actually had a fatal Covid event and where many may well already have had Covid 19 the risk may well sway the other way.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-drugs-found-cause-side-effects-ye
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Covid Postponements on 22:40 - Jan 5 with 1938 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 22:07 - Jan 5 by 49thseason

Thanks for these links, I'm sure you will have realised that they represent a "temporary" authorisation , not a permit to sell these vaccines to all and sundry, Temporary because they feel the risk of Covid 19 is greater than any risk posed by the vaccine. These permits only take into account the data up to the date of the authorisation or about 140days of injecting half the volunteer cohorts (the other half got a placebo)..

A complete new drug submission to the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or any other National approval body, often runs to 1000s of pages and can cost millions of Dollars to complete, These 12 or 13 pages of information are the very bare bones of the information gathered from a short trial albeit with decent numbers of people. AZ admit that they will not have proper data from the complete Phase 3 trial until 2023.

BTW . My 92 year old MiL has had her first dose already and I am sure your elderly Father will be fine, but there is risk and like so many drugs in the past, it might only be the passage of time that uncovers problems as yet unseen or even thought of. This US article outlines some of the problems that come to light only when a new drug is prescribed to the general population. My view is that the risk to my MiL from the Vax and that of Covid are probably on the side of the vaccine but as we get to younger people where so very few fit people have actually had a fatal Covid event and where many may well already have had Covid 19 the risk may well sway the other way.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-drugs-found-cause-side-effects-ye


That's all very interesting if not exactly news (that long term effects of drug usage can have unforeseen effects), but in the meantime, there are serious concerns of the effects of 'Long Covid' including in younger age groups

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55331166

So how to balance these risks? There needs to be some breathing space (metaphorically as well as physically) before assessments can be made, and that can only happen beyond the immediacy of a pandemic. So for now, the science which leads us to that point has to be respected or we won't get there, or it'll take longer

And where do you draw the line, right now? With what age group does your opinion start to kick in? And just as importantly, how would you propose those age groups below your threshold are persuaded of the relative risks?
[Post edited 5 Jan 2021 22:45]

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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Covid Postponements on 13:47 - Jan 6 with 1707 viewsjudd

Covid Postponements on 22:40 - Jan 5 by D_Alien

That's all very interesting if not exactly news (that long term effects of drug usage can have unforeseen effects), but in the meantime, there are serious concerns of the effects of 'Long Covid' including in younger age groups

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55331166

So how to balance these risks? There needs to be some breathing space (metaphorically as well as physically) before assessments can be made, and that can only happen beyond the immediacy of a pandemic. So for now, the science which leads us to that point has to be respected or we won't get there, or it'll take longer

And where do you draw the line, right now? With what age group does your opinion start to kick in? And just as importantly, how would you propose those age groups below your threshold are persuaded of the relative risks?
[Post edited 5 Jan 2021 22:45]


Pfizer chiefs predict a riot

Poll: What is it to be then?

2
Covid Postponements on 14:54 - Jan 6 with 1653 viewsDaleiLama

Covid Postponements on 13:47 - Jan 6 by judd

Pfizer chiefs predict a riot


It's the Moderna way

Up the Dale - NOT for sale!
Poll: Is it coming home?

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Covid Postponements on 15:00 - Jan 6 with 1644 viewsjudd

Covid Postponements on 14:54 - Jan 6 by DaleiLama

It's the Moderna way


Ricky Wilson says?

Poll: What is it to be then?

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Covid Postponements on 15:49 - Jan 6 with 1588 views442Dale

Vitamin D:Ream have already told us things are going to improve.

Poll: Greatest Ever Dale Game

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Covid Postponements on 16:14 - Jan 6 with 1558 viewsJames1980

Covid Postponements on 14:54 - Jan 6 by DaleiLama

It's the Moderna way


Blur reckon, The Moderna way is rubbish.

'Only happy when you've got it often makes you miss the journey'
Poll: Is moving to a new location

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Covid Postponements on 17:13 - Jan 6 with 1500 viewsboromat



I think this is the right move but there is now going to be a flood of postponements I reckon!

Poll: What are we more excited for?

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Covid Postponements on 11:07 - Jan 7 with 1375 viewsOxDale

Covid Postponements on 22:07 - Jan 5 by 49thseason

Thanks for these links, I'm sure you will have realised that they represent a "temporary" authorisation , not a permit to sell these vaccines to all and sundry, Temporary because they feel the risk of Covid 19 is greater than any risk posed by the vaccine. These permits only take into account the data up to the date of the authorisation or about 140days of injecting half the volunteer cohorts (the other half got a placebo)..

A complete new drug submission to the United States Food and Drug Administration (FDA) or any other National approval body, often runs to 1000s of pages and can cost millions of Dollars to complete, These 12 or 13 pages of information are the very bare bones of the information gathered from a short trial albeit with decent numbers of people. AZ admit that they will not have proper data from the complete Phase 3 trial until 2023.

BTW . My 92 year old MiL has had her first dose already and I am sure your elderly Father will be fine, but there is risk and like so many drugs in the past, it might only be the passage of time that uncovers problems as yet unseen or even thought of. This US article outlines some of the problems that come to light only when a new drug is prescribed to the general population. My view is that the risk to my MiL from the Vax and that of Covid are probably on the side of the vaccine but as we get to younger people where so very few fit people have actually had a fatal Covid event and where many may well already have had Covid 19 the risk may well sway the other way.

https://www.nbcnews.com/health/health-news/new-drugs-found-cause-side-effects-ye


You make a valid point about the shift in balance of risk/benefit as the demographic changes. And the vaccines are being rolled out so that those most at risk get the vaccine first. That has the consequence of more safety data, over more time before the less at risk get vaccinated. The temporary / emergency use authorisation requires monitoring of the vaccinations for adverse events. In effect a phase 4 clinical trial. To my knowledge (in the public domain) there have been no enduring serious adverse events from the vaccinations, so far. With millions given globally. Whereas yesterday more than a 1000 people died in the UK alone, after testing positive for covid within 28 days. We should always monitor and question the data, a bit like questioning the manager and board at RAFC, and that is why second and third generation drugs/vaccines are made that are safer/more efficacious. Right now, the data favours vaccination with the current products but if the data changes, a change of mind is in order.
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Covid Postponements on 12:01 - Jan 7 with 1306 viewsisitme

Covid Postponements on 11:07 - Jan 7 by OxDale

You make a valid point about the shift in balance of risk/benefit as the demographic changes. And the vaccines are being rolled out so that those most at risk get the vaccine first. That has the consequence of more safety data, over more time before the less at risk get vaccinated. The temporary / emergency use authorisation requires monitoring of the vaccinations for adverse events. In effect a phase 4 clinical trial. To my knowledge (in the public domain) there have been no enduring serious adverse events from the vaccinations, so far. With millions given globally. Whereas yesterday more than a 1000 people died in the UK alone, after testing positive for covid within 28 days. We should always monitor and question the data, a bit like questioning the manager and board at RAFC, and that is why second and third generation drugs/vaccines are made that are safer/more efficacious. Right now, the data favours vaccination with the current products but if the data changes, a change of mind is in order.


'Yesterday more than a 1000 people died in the UK alone, after testing positive for covid within 28 days'

No they did not. Those deaths were spread over a number of days, they were just reported yesterday. This chart below (bottom one) gives a better indication of the general situation as it includes date of actual death as well as reporting dates.



Whilst around 500 deaths per day is not great. To say 1000 people died yesterday due to Covid is disingenuous. That is without questioning what is a 'Covid death'.
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:05]
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Covid Postponements on 12:42 - Jan 7 with 1247 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 11:07 - Jan 7 by OxDale

You make a valid point about the shift in balance of risk/benefit as the demographic changes. And the vaccines are being rolled out so that those most at risk get the vaccine first. That has the consequence of more safety data, over more time before the less at risk get vaccinated. The temporary / emergency use authorisation requires monitoring of the vaccinations for adverse events. In effect a phase 4 clinical trial. To my knowledge (in the public domain) there have been no enduring serious adverse events from the vaccinations, so far. With millions given globally. Whereas yesterday more than a 1000 people died in the UK alone, after testing positive for covid within 28 days. We should always monitor and question the data, a bit like questioning the manager and board at RAFC, and that is why second and third generation drugs/vaccines are made that are safer/more efficacious. Right now, the data favours vaccination with the current products but if the data changes, a change of mind is in order.


The 'valid point' you refer to is, in reality, a pretty mundane one that anyone with a modicum of common sense might agree with

The far more important issue here is this: amid the welter of anti-vaxxer falsehoods being perpetrated, if just one person who follows this messageboard is deterred from taking up the vaccination when offered, that's putting their health and those of their loved ones at risk

As for not seeing the difference between questioning matters of football on a football messageboard and seeking to influence people to take negative decisions about their health - really??


[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:51]

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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Covid Postponements on 17:09 - Jan 7 with 1110 viewsOxDale

Covid Postponements on 12:01 - Jan 7 by isitme

'Yesterday more than a 1000 people died in the UK alone, after testing positive for covid within 28 days'

No they did not. Those deaths were spread over a number of days, they were just reported yesterday. This chart below (bottom one) gives a better indication of the general situation as it includes date of actual death as well as reporting dates.



Whilst around 500 deaths per day is not great. To say 1000 people died yesterday due to Covid is disingenuous. That is without questioning what is a 'Covid death'.
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:05]


Okay you score a small point over my laziness in checking data. The total number of deaths reported in the last 7-days to 7th January 2021 is 4,996, where a person had tested positive for covid-19 within the last 28-days. Happy with that? Versus zero deaths attributed to 1,296,432 people vaccinated. Can you see the merit in that?
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Covid Postponements on 17:10 - Jan 7 with 1107 viewsOxDale

Covid Postponements on 12:42 - Jan 7 by D_Alien

The 'valid point' you refer to is, in reality, a pretty mundane one that anyone with a modicum of common sense might agree with

The far more important issue here is this: amid the welter of anti-vaxxer falsehoods being perpetrated, if just one person who follows this messageboard is deterred from taking up the vaccination when offered, that's putting their health and those of their loved ones at risk

As for not seeing the difference between questioning matters of football on a football messageboard and seeking to influence people to take negative decisions about their health - really??


[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 12:51]


Funny how people get hold of the wrong end of the stick. The ”valid point” was an attempt to be reasonable and not adversarial. The risk/benefit is clearly in favour of vaccination to any reasonable person. But we should question the data, may be that’s the wrong phrase, examine the data is perhaps better. The scientists and clinicians that developed the vaccines will be and that’s how we get better vaccines.
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Covid Postponements on 17:26 - Jan 7 with 1081 viewsDaleiLama

Covid Postponements on 17:09 - Jan 7 by OxDale

Okay you score a small point over my laziness in checking data. The total number of deaths reported in the last 7-days to 7th January 2021 is 4,996, where a person had tested positive for covid-19 within the last 28-days. Happy with that? Versus zero deaths attributed to 1,296,432 people vaccinated. Can you see the merit in that?


I think isitme's point had some validity in terms of reporting having lags involved with it but today's number was 1162 anyway. I also think the absolute value of whatever number is issued each day has less relevance to the trends. Of major concern is the fact that treatment has improved survival rates by somewhere in the range of probably 1/3-1/2 and we have similar "levels" of deaths as the first wave now, which confirms where we are and how much trouble we are in.

Up the Dale - NOT for sale!
Poll: Is it coming home?

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Covid Postponements on 17:43 - Jan 7 with 1044 viewsisitme

Covid Postponements on 17:09 - Jan 7 by OxDale

Okay you score a small point over my laziness in checking data. The total number of deaths reported in the last 7-days to 7th January 2021 is 4,996, where a person had tested positive for covid-19 within the last 28-days. Happy with that? Versus zero deaths attributed to 1,296,432 people vaccinated. Can you see the merit in that?


It's not about scoring points or being happy with anything it's about accuracy of data.
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Covid Postponements on 18:10 - Jan 7 with 997 viewsD_Alien

Covid Postponements on 17:43 - Jan 7 by isitme

It's not about scoring points or being happy with anything it's about accuracy of data.


Absolutely, and neither is it about not being right and proper to challenge data or scientific analysis

Right now, we have a known risk - the infection from and transmission to others of a virus which can be fatal especially in the elderly and vulnerable; or lead to ongoing debility through Long Covid in any age group

49th is looking at potential risks much further down the line, and pointedly asking that "people should be aware" of those risks. The only outcome of that will be to dissuade some - however few - from taking the necessary steps to protect themselves and wider society through the vaccination programme

Engaging in debate at that theoretical level does nothing more than give it the air that it currently doesn't deserve. There will no doubt be a time for working scientists to examine longer term outcomes and inform the public, but that time absolutely is not now

Poll: What are you planning to do v Newport

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