| Covid Postponements 12:53 - Dec 23 with 22988 views | boromat |
4 games off this weekend in League One due to Covid-19 infiltrating football club 'bubbles'.
This doesn't bode well for the season I think we're lucky there's not been too many called off due to weather so far but there could be some pile up of fixtures if this is what we are to expect every week. I know there's been talking of a football circuit breaker. I'm not sure how that would work. |  |
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| Covid Postponements on 18:11 - Jan 7 with 2382 views | 442Dale |
| Covid Postponements on 17:43 - Jan 7 by isitme |
It's not about scoring points or being happy with anything it's about accuracy of data. |
And that’s always important. However there’s obviously a serious issue that has justified these measures.
The reports on the news from those in hospitals and the Chief Exec of NHS on tonight’s briefing are making that abundantly clear. Surely there is no argument for not locking down at present? |  |
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| Covid Postponements on 18:11 - Jan 7 with 2383 views | D_Alien |
| Covid Postponements on 17:10 - Jan 7 by OxDale |
Funny how people get hold of the wrong end of the stick. The ”valid point” was an attempt to be reasonable and not adversarial. The risk/benefit is clearly in favour of vaccination to any reasonable person. But we should question the data, may be that’s the wrong phrase, examine the data is perhaps better. The scientists and clinicians that developed the vaccines will be and that’s how we get better vaccines. |
I'm afraid the wrong end of the stick is very much engaging in theoretical debate in the midst of a pandemic which could cast doubt in some minds about the wisdom of being vaccinated
[Post edited 7 Jan 2021 18:14]
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| Covid Postponements on 07:46 - Jan 8 with 2156 views | isitme |
| Covid Postponements on 18:11 - Jan 7 by 442Dale |
And that’s always important. However there’s obviously a serious issue that has justified these measures.
The reports on the news from those in hospitals and the Chief Exec of NHS on tonight’s briefing are making that abundantly clear. Surely there is no argument for not locking down at present? |
How ever much some people appear to enjoy restrictions and lockdowns there should always be arguments surrounding 'locking down' due to the massive implications for everyone in society of its implementation. This should be the same regarding any decision with a similar scale of impact.
There should always be different options evaluated and debated. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 9:00]
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| Covid Postponements on 09:01 - Jan 8 with 2102 views | isitme |
A good example below of why it is important to present accurate data. Alison asks a really good question and Tim (runs the Zoe app) gives an accurate answer to correct her potential misconception.
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 9:08]
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| Covid Postponements on 09:40 - Jan 8 with 2065 views | DaleiLama |
| Covid Postponements on 09:01 - Jan 8 by isitme |
A good example below of why it is important to present accurate data. Alison asks a really good question and Tim (runs the Zoe app) gives an accurate answer to correct her potential misconception.
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 9:08]
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Great news from Pfizer - hopefully we get the same for the AZ vaccine.
They mentioned on the tv the other day that current death rate ex-C19 is well below normal. If car journeys aren't being made, people aren't walking on slippery surfaces as much, not spreading flu etc etc, it makes sense. At the end of all this, when, as Chris Whitty said, we have only a "background Covid mortality" similar or less than the flu each year, then excess deaths can be measured to find out the true impact of Covid. As DA pointed out the other day though, the death rate will probably fall because a lot of society's most frail died months/a year earlier than normal and would have appeared in "statistics" somewhere down the line anyway. I have no doubt the numbers will be interpreted in a variety of ways to suit agendas from MPs right down the food chain. |  |
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| Covid Postponements on 10:24 - Jan 8 with 2021 views | isitme |
| Covid Postponements on 09:40 - Jan 8 by DaleiLama |
Great news from Pfizer - hopefully we get the same for the AZ vaccine.
They mentioned on the tv the other day that current death rate ex-C19 is well below normal. If car journeys aren't being made, people aren't walking on slippery surfaces as much, not spreading flu etc etc, it makes sense. At the end of all this, when, as Chris Whitty said, we have only a "background Covid mortality" similar or less than the flu each year, then excess deaths can be measured to find out the true impact of Covid. As DA pointed out the other day though, the death rate will probably fall because a lot of society's most frail died months/a year earlier than normal and would have appeared in "statistics" somewhere down the line anyway. I have no doubt the numbers will be interpreted in a variety of ways to suit agendas from MPs right down the food chain. |
Absolutely agree, that is why accurate data is important as it should help to avoid extreme and inaccurate statements on both sides and help to keep things in perspective.
The relatively good winter last year created a dry tinder effect in the spring and the excess deaths chart from March to May shows a massive excess for this period, with pretty much all of this attributable to Covid. There were some non Covid excess deaths during this period possibly due to people not wanting to attend hospitals.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ErI6eE9W8AEgHfu?format=jpg&name=medium
As you quite rightly point out currently people who may have died of other things either now or in the medium term as being classed as 'Covid deaths'. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 10:48]
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| Covid Postponements on 11:29 - Jan 8 with 1951 views | DaleiLama |
Ursula von der Leyen, in a pre-prepared speech whilst reading from notes, stated that the EU had 300m Pfizer BioNtech vaccines on order and had just extended this contract to order 300m more, in other words, doubling the order. Who was her audience? I would have thought most 10 yr olds would be ok with that without the explanation of doubling. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 13:12 - Jan 8 with 1856 views | D_Alien |
And now we have the Moderna vaccine to come on stream
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-55586410
I think it's important for those who've had the jab not to stop taking the standard precautions all the unjabbed should be doing. There's already one "hard luck" story in the media about someone (a nurse, as it happens) who received the Pfizer jab and then caught Covid - an unlucky 1 in 20 may do so (or 1 in 10 after the first jab). Unfortunately, she then passed it on to her family
No vaccine is 100% effective, but a sense of proportion should be retained. During the vaccine trials, no-one who subsequently caught Covid had the most severe effects; no-one died
There will come a time when a critical mass of the population will have had the jab, when the virus becomes much less erm... virulent. But that's why no-one should be given any reason to think it won't be safe for them to be vaccinated, hence my obvious disgust at so-called "debates" on here about unknowable longer term effects
We all get how science works, and how vaccines can be made more effective given future scientific evidence. Debating that particular aspect of it on here isn't going to achieve anything positive. I really hope that's the last time i have to emphasise that point | |
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| Covid Postponements on 13:16 - Jan 8 with 1841 views | boromat |
Villa have 10 players with Covid but are going ahead with their match tonight using an U23s team.
Shrews also have positive cases and their match is postponed.
Oldham now playing away at Bournemouth because of a frozen pitch as well. I think with the build up of games teams are just doing anything to play the games and get them done. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 13:28 - Jan 8 with 1811 views | AtThePeake |
| Covid Postponements on 13:16 - Jan 8 by boromat |
Villa have 10 players with Covid but are going ahead with their match tonight using an U23s team.
Shrews also have positive cases and their match is postponed.
Oldham now playing away at Bournemouth because of a frozen pitch as well. I think with the build up of games teams are just doing anything to play the games and get them done. |
Given the teams Klopp has picked for cup games in the past it could basically be an U23 match at Villa Park tonight. |  |
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| Covid Postponements on 13:28 - Jan 8 with 1811 views | DaleiLama |
| Covid Postponements on 16:14 - Jan 6 by James1980 |
Blur reckon, The Moderna way is rubbish. |
Just glad the MHRA disagreed | |
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| Covid Postponements on 13:46 - Jan 8 with 1782 views | James1980 |
| Covid Postponements on 13:28 - Jan 8 by DaleiLama |
Just glad the MHRA disagreed |
Yes absolutely great we now have 3 vaccines approved. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 14:05 - Jan 8 with 1755 views | Toffeemanc |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55591017
Some frightening figures here from the latest EFL testing.
If my maths is right the positive tests from test taken would amount to around 3200 cases per 100,000 which is approx. 4 x higher than the national average that has seen a national lockdown enforced. Seems football clubs are a breeding ground despite all the protocols in place. Figures this high would suggest it won't be long before the season is suspended. |  |
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| Covid Postponements on 14:23 - Jan 8 with 1720 views | AtThePeake |
| Covid Postponements on 14:05 - Jan 8 by Toffeemanc |
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/55591017
Some frightening figures here from the latest EFL testing.
If my maths is right the positive tests from test taken would amount to around 3200 cases per 100,000 which is approx. 4 x higher than the national average that has seen a national lockdown enforced. Seems football clubs are a breeding ground despite all the protocols in place. Figures this high would suggest it won't be long before the season is suspended. |
Or everyone involved is vaccinated if Sean Dyche's suggestion is carried out...
https://www.theguardian.com/football/2021/jan/07/burnley-manager-sean-dyche-foot
This seems pretty selfish to me with the amount of at-risk people that will need the vaccine first. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 14:38 - Jan 8 with 1696 views | DaleiLama |
Absolutely. The entertainment industry has to be back of the queue for vaccinations.
The elderly, the infirm, healthcare workers, emergency workers, hauliers, teachers, supermarket workers, farming community, plumbers, dentists etc etc etc - none of these people have any choice but to carry on working and risk becoming infected.
There is enough cash sloshing around in football at all levels to keep it running for years without income (which won't be necessary) if shared out equitably. I've missed my Dale fix as much as the next man, but it's not exactly essential is it? | |
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| Covid Postponements on 17:23 - Jan 8 with 1589 views | 442Dale |
| Covid Postponements on 07:46 - Jan 8 by isitme |
How ever much some people appear to enjoy restrictions and lockdowns there should always be arguments surrounding 'locking down' due to the massive implications for everyone in society of its implementation. This should be the same regarding any decision with a similar scale of impact.
There should always be different options evaluated and debated. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 9:00]
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Honestly not come across anyone who has said they “enjoy” the lockdowns and restrictions.
There was a specific mention of the reports directly from inside hospitals and whether the current lockdown should be argued against based on that. Everyone is fully aware of the implications to the rest of society.
What exactly should the hospitals do if there wasn’t a lockdown/strict restrictions to reduce transmission? | |
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| Covid Postponements on 18:07 - Jan 8 with 1526 views | isitme |
| Covid Postponements on 17:23 - Jan 8 by 442Dale |
Honestly not come across anyone who has said they “enjoy” the lockdowns and restrictions.
There was a specific mention of the reports directly from inside hospitals and whether the current lockdown should be argued against based on that. Everyone is fully aware of the implications to the rest of society.
What exactly should the hospitals do if there wasn’t a lockdown/strict restrictions to reduce transmission? |
Thankfully you do not, or not know anyone who works with Cromwellian era puritans who get excited when more and more stringent restrictions are imposed on people.
You stated that surely there is no argument for not locking down at the moment to which I replied that there should always be arguments against any decision which has such a significant impact as locking down the country. Now after evaluating these arguments this could quite well end up with the same decision being made or changes being made so that better decisions are made. Look at the issue of what is closed during lockdowns/restrictions, for example why are places of worship currently open during lockdown 3? Why are/were gyms closed when healthier people are less likely to require hospital treatment? Why have we been so lax regarding who can fly into the country.
The main argument I would have at the moment is what is the exit plan? Obviously it is vaccine based, but what category do we need to get to before restrictions can be lifted and when is this likely to be? Let's say we get to group 4 by the middle of February then we can reopen schools, when we get to level 6 we can revert to the tier systems and so on.Things like that, with a pathway out of restrictions would help people who are really struggling to cope with continued restrictions. You might be okay and can cope, but many people are not and cannot and need some tangible hope to help them through it. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:14]
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| Covid Postponements on 18:22 - Jan 8 with 1497 views | BigDaveMyCock |
| Covid Postponements on 07:46 - Jan 8 by isitme |
How ever much some people appear to enjoy restrictions and lockdowns there should always be arguments surrounding 'locking down' due to the massive implications for everyone in society of its implementation. This should be the same regarding any decision with a similar scale of impact.
There should always be different options evaluated and debated. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 9:00]
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I think we’re all up for a bit of discussion and debate but if you’re going to propose that people ‘enjoy’ the various Covid restrictions then you’re probably not going to find many people to debate with.
The vast majority of people accept, and not enjoy, the restrictions. I am, however, all ears as to how you think we can reduce the number of hospitalisations and deaths without lockdown or why you think the current level of hospitalisations and deaths, and the risk of hospitals being overwhelmed, is a better outcome than another outcome?
I’m interested in your opinion btw, not the provision of some selective data followed by an open question but with a subtle inference. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:45]
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| Covid Postponements on 18:32 - Jan 8 with 1467 views | 442Dale |
| Covid Postponements on 18:07 - Jan 8 by isitme |
Thankfully you do not, or not know anyone who works with Cromwellian era puritans who get excited when more and more stringent restrictions are imposed on people.
You stated that surely there is no argument for not locking down at the moment to which I replied that there should always be arguments against any decision which has such a significant impact as locking down the country. Now after evaluating these arguments this could quite well end up with the same decision being made or changes being made so that better decisions are made. Look at the issue of what is closed during lockdowns/restrictions, for example why are places of worship currently open during lockdown 3? Why are/were gyms closed when healthier people are less likely to require hospital treatment? Why have we been so lax regarding who can fly into the country.
The main argument I would have at the moment is what is the exit plan? Obviously it is vaccine based, but what category do we need to get to before restrictions can be lifted and when is this likely to be? Let's say we get to group 4 by the middle of February then we can reopen schools, when we get to level 6 we can revert to the tier systems and so on.Things like that, with a pathway out of restrictions would help people who are really struggling to cope with continued restrictions. You might be okay and can cope, but many people are not and cannot and need some tangible hope to help them through it. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:14]
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Didn’t hint at or mention how I was at all, to me it’s irrelevant as would always be more concerned about the effects on others and am more than aware of how the whole situation is having so much impact on so many people. And whilst I agree entirely there should always be clear plans for the future in place which are as transparent and flexible as possible to give as much information to people who are seeking and would benefit from it, it is still not the point being made here around the current situation which is being reported from directly inside hospitals and last night from the CEO of the NHS.
Also fully appreciate the contradictory nature of the guidance with regards to restrictions and would personally argue that some places could be open safely (golf courses for example) but again that’s an argument for another day, one that any individuals concerned should take up with their MP so they can bring that up in a debate with the government that was elected by the people just over a year ago. It’s that right now, unless someone is able to claim otherwise, the impact of the virus in terms of people getting ill and the impact on hospitals is obviously a very serious issue. One compounded by the fact that when people mix, the virus spreads. What exactly does the country do to stop that if it isn’t some sort of lockdown restriction? Whilst considering this, it’s amazing how many do debate what is happening here and why things are as they are and if it’s right/wrong, without actually realising that many other countries have been in lockdowns recently, much more stringent than ours across the Christmas period and that’s without a new strain thrown into their mix. We aren’t anything special... well apart from vast swathes of the United States, but the bloke behind most of their direction on it all possibly isn’t the one we’d want to follow.
Plus I wouldn’t feel the need to label anyone who chooses to “get excited” by restrictions as I’d hope their family and friends would be supporting them to deal with the changes that occur in the future once vaccines have the impact we all hope for. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 18:39 - Jan 8 with 1452 views | D_Alien |
| Covid Postponements on 18:07 - Jan 8 by isitme |
Thankfully you do not, or not know anyone who works with Cromwellian era puritans who get excited when more and more stringent restrictions are imposed on people.
You stated that surely there is no argument for not locking down at the moment to which I replied that there should always be arguments against any decision which has such a significant impact as locking down the country. Now after evaluating these arguments this could quite well end up with the same decision being made or changes being made so that better decisions are made. Look at the issue of what is closed during lockdowns/restrictions, for example why are places of worship currently open during lockdown 3? Why are/were gyms closed when healthier people are less likely to require hospital treatment? Why have we been so lax regarding who can fly into the country.
The main argument I would have at the moment is what is the exit plan? Obviously it is vaccine based, but what category do we need to get to before restrictions can be lifted and when is this likely to be? Let's say we get to group 4 by the middle of February then we can reopen schools, when we get to level 6 we can revert to the tier systems and so on.Things like that, with a pathway out of restrictions would help people who are really struggling to cope with continued restrictions. You might be okay and can cope, but many people are not and cannot and need some tangible hope to help them through it. [Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:14]
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Your 'main argument' point is understandable and based on how the most psychologically fragile must be feeling, which is commendable
The problem with any exit plan is that it becomes a hostage to fortune; or worse, a stick with which to beat politicians who might put one forward. For instance, setting a plan to revert to tier systems when specific groups have been inoculated would require several other variables to fall into place, such as no further more virulent mutations which affect younger age groups - there will be other unknowns that by definition might confound the plan
We've all heard how the media react when politicians set targets that aren't met, and even with the current mutation seemed unwilling to allow that to be used as a reason for late changes in restrictions, to the effect it had to be repeated to them ad nauseam during briefings
In addition, each of the four nations have the ability to set their own restrictions and conditions for how they're applied, and again, if one nation seems to be doing better than another the cry goes out: why don't you do that? Setting an exit plan is therefore not only inadvisable from a political point of view, but adds the possibility of it not being adhered to into the mix, which would only further exacerbate the psychological pain for those who might've been setting so much store by it
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:41]
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| Covid Postponements on 19:11 - Jan 8 with 1380 views | tony_roch975 |
| Covid Postponements on 18:39 - Jan 8 by D_Alien |
Your 'main argument' point is understandable and based on how the most psychologically fragile must be feeling, which is commendable
The problem with any exit plan is that it becomes a hostage to fortune; or worse, a stick with which to beat politicians who might put one forward. For instance, setting a plan to revert to tier systems when specific groups have been inoculated would require several other variables to fall into place, such as no further more virulent mutations which affect younger age groups - there will be other unknowns that by definition might confound the plan
We've all heard how the media react when politicians set targets that aren't met, and even with the current mutation seemed unwilling to allow that to be used as a reason for late changes in restrictions, to the effect it had to be repeated to them ad nauseam during briefings
In addition, each of the four nations have the ability to set their own restrictions and conditions for how they're applied, and again, if one nation seems to be doing better than another the cry goes out: why don't you do that? Setting an exit plan is therefore not only inadvisable from a political point of view, but adds the possibility of it not being adhered to into the mix, which would only further exacerbate the psychological pain for those who might've been setting so much store by it
[Post edited 8 Jan 2021 18:41]
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setting targets is fraught with the dilemmas you pose but there's no problem with announcing a range of exit plans explaining which criteria will determine which and by how much any mitigations will be eased; it was repeated ad nauseum, but not because the media needed it to be explained; what they needed, as do all we citizens, was an explanation of why the Govt had been unaware of the fact that all viruses mutate to become more transmissible and all the indicators were showing sustained growth in hospitalisations and deaths way before the Govt acted. Above all less bluster and bombast about when it'll be over as if we are all 3 year olds who need to hear our dead pet is alive and well in heaven, more frankness about why there can't be the certainty most crave about the road to be travelled, less micro-management by contradictory rules and more honesty about how long the impacts may have to last - all that would be helpful. | |
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| Covid Postponements on 19:28 - Jan 8 with 1354 views | D_Alien |
| Covid Postponements on 19:11 - Jan 8 by tony_roch975 |
setting targets is fraught with the dilemmas you pose but there's no problem with announcing a range of exit plans explaining which criteria will determine which and by how much any mitigations will be eased; it was repeated ad nauseum, but not because the media needed it to be explained; what they needed, as do all we citizens, was an explanation of why the Govt had been unaware of the fact that all viruses mutate to become more transmissible and all the indicators were showing sustained growth in hospitalisations and deaths way before the Govt acted. Above all less bluster and bombast about when it'll be over as if we are all 3 year olds who need to hear our dead pet is alive and well in heaven, more frankness about why there can't be the certainty most crave about the road to be travelled, less micro-management by contradictory rules and more honesty about how long the impacts may have to last - all that would be helpful. |
You might be surprised if i say that's, in the main, fair comment
Of course, the govt was aware through it's scientific advisers that viruses mutate, but it was also the scientific advisers who were taking trouble to offset the most rabid of the media questioning. At least we haven't got to put up with 'Death' Rigby since she's been taken off air for not following guidelines! | |
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| Covid Postponements on 06:33 - Jan 9 with 1176 views | DaleiLama |
| Covid Postponements on 19:28 - Jan 8 by D_Alien |
You might be surprised if i say that's, in the main, fair comment
Of course, the govt was aware through it's scientific advisers that viruses mutate, but it was also the scientific advisers who were taking trouble to offset the most rabid of the media questioning. At least we haven't got to put up with 'Death' Rigby since she's been taken off air for not following guidelines! |
I remember at the start of this pandemic being heartened by the scientific advisors stating that this seemed to be a stable virus and quite unlikely to mutate. Surprised the vultures in the wings haven't brought that up yet tbh. | |
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