| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting 17:17 - Oct 14 with 14621 views | 442Dale |
With a potentially crucial revenue stream now not able to be exploited, planning for possible future scenarios takes on even more importance as time continues to tick by. For reference, again, supporters showed real interest at the fans meeting with the Trust on the 25th August in looking at what role we can all play, and a further meeting was requested that evening with it being stressed how important it was to not let too much time pass - before the Halifax and Barnet games were two suggestions (the 2nd and 16th of September).
Last Sunday the following was posted on this messageboard:
Specific details about the opportunities for volunteers are due to be released by the end of this week.
On the other subjects raised in this thread it is crucial the fans meeting the Trust have planned is confirmed as soon as possible. The lack of clarity around our current situation is becoming an obvious problem.
The importance of this fans meeting was established in the Trust newsletter released at the start of October:
https://www.daletrust.co.uk/20
<<“ We have a fans meeting planned for later this month. It is currently booked in for the morning of the Oldham game. However, given the issues that we faced when we held a meeting ahead of the Bromley game, we are looking at what will be the best way of hosting that event. It is important that such a meeting is held ahead of our meeting with the Directors a few days later, but with a larger crowd expected for this game, it may be counter productive. We will update members sooner rather than later with respect to this.”>>
So, since that post on the 8th and then noting that the newsletter came out at the start of the month, has anyone heard anything about the already scheduled fans meeting? Especially as we were expecting to hear “sooner rather than later”. Or any updates from the volunteer meeting for that matter.
Results should never impact delaying achievable work on the future of the football club, whether it’s when we were winning, or even today. But everyone knows how going out of the cup will be a definite financial blow. [Post edited 14 Oct 2023 17:19]
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:28 - Oct 15 with 3342 views | 442Dale |
The tune needed to change nearly six months ago when the meetings with supporters took place. That was made clear across every one of those gatherings between the Trust and many engaged, hopeful and committed fans.
It’s really disappointing that the song is all too familiar. | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:29 - Oct 15 with 3338 views | judd |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:24 - Oct 15 by Rodingdale |
To answer your question. No - nor does Simon. One of the reasons for this is because of his ‘business strategy’ - under his leadership the value of RAFC continues to fall. So a person in their right mind, watching will be a. waiting to see how low the price will go, and b. how desperate Simon gets when he sees that the price he’ll get for his shares gets to his bottom line. We’re being kept in the dark by the board, and also it seems the leadership of the trust, I expect that will continue until we reach point a. or b. above, we will then get some sort of announcement: New buyer? Administration then new buyer more likely. History tells us it gets worse before it gets better eg Wigan, Southend, Scunthorpe etc etc.. The problem is the longer it goes on the lower the value and the worse the deal becomes, the less there is left.
If you want to sit back and watch that, then fine.
Individuals have offered help, but these are reportedly politely declined. On precise grounds I know not.
Instead we need collective action. The trust leadership are, in my view, conflicted by the board seat. I would vote to resign the post as a first step to establishing an independent trust with a mission to protect the future of our club. The trust need to be providing facts to members before asking for votes.
An as yet unpublicised provisional date set for a meeting in four days time, a good way to make sure you get a poor turnout I’d suggest. The tune needs to change. |
At the last fans meeting it was stated that the MOU and the role and responsibilities of the Trust board director were being worked on and would be presented to the club board.
The draft documents will be sent to a lawyer tomorrow for advice and comment, following a 2 hour meeting with the same lawyer last Tuesday evening. The plan is to then present them to the club in good time for them to be able to respond at their meeting with the Trust on 26th October. |  |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:39 - Oct 15 with 3300 views | 442Dale |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:29 - Oct 15 by judd |
At the last fans meeting it was stated that the MOU and the role and responsibilities of the Trust board director were being worked on and would be presented to the club board.
The draft documents will be sent to a lawyer tomorrow for advice and comment, following a 2 hour meeting with the same lawyer last Tuesday evening. The plan is to then present them to the club in good time for them to be able to respond at their meeting with the Trust on 26th October. |
Cheers. That MOU will be a really important document and the work that’s gone into it will be very worthwhile for the future. It’s something the club themselves should see the benefits of as it sets out clear routes and develops understanding with supporters. | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 16:01 - Oct 15 with 3231 views | Rodingdale |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:29 - Oct 15 by judd |
At the last fans meeting it was stated that the MOU and the role and responsibilities of the Trust board director were being worked on and would be presented to the club board.
The draft documents will be sent to a lawyer tomorrow for advice and comment, following a 2 hour meeting with the same lawyer last Tuesday evening. The plan is to then present them to the club in good time for them to be able to respond at their meeting with the Trust on 26th October. |
Thanks for the information. It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the 26th Oct meeting. |  | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 16:34 - Oct 15 with 3146 views | D_Alien |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 16:01 - Oct 15 by Rodingdale |
Thanks for the information. It will be interesting to hear the outcome of the 26th Oct meeting. |
It will, but the outcome should be put to another vote of the Trust membership. If there's an outcome that will change my mind about the Trust rep resigning from the board to re-establish independence, i can't see it
It will also be vital that the wording of any vote be acceptable to members. A recent vote that took place may have created the impression in the minds of some that the Trust membership actually favoured the Dale Board seeking external investment leading to a majority shareholding, instead of grudgingly accepting that any other option might've led to something even worse |  |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting (n/t) on 16:59 - Oct 15 with 3050 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 15:24 - Oct 15 by Rodingdale |
To answer your question. No - nor does Simon. One of the reasons for this is because of his ‘business strategy’ - under his leadership the value of RAFC continues to fall. So a person in their right mind, watching will be a. waiting to see how low the price will go, and b. how desperate Simon gets when he sees that the price he’ll get for his shares gets to his bottom line. We’re being kept in the dark by the board, and also it seems the leadership of the trust, I expect that will continue until we reach point a. or b. above, we will then get some sort of announcement: New buyer? Administration then new buyer more likely. History tells us it gets worse before it gets better eg Wigan, Southend, Scunthorpe etc etc.. The problem is the longer it goes on the lower the value and the worse the deal becomes, the less there is left.
If you want to sit back and watch that, then fine.
Individuals have offered help, but these are reportedly politely declined. On precise grounds I know not.
Instead we need collective action. The trust leadership are, in my view, conflicted by the board seat. I would vote to resign the post as a first step to establishing an independent trust with a mission to protect the future of our club. The trust need to be providing facts to members before asking for votes.
An as yet unpublicised provisional date set for a meeting in four days time, a good way to make sure you get a poor turnout I’d suggest. The tune needs to change. |
[Post edited 15 Oct 2023 17:04]
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 17:03 - Oct 15 with 3037 views | 442Dale |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting (n/t) on 16:59 - Oct 15 by blackdogblue |
[Post edited 15 Oct 2023 17:04]
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Why is it?
Not saying that should happen, but there’s nothing wrong with debating it. | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 17:05 - Oct 15 with 3030 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 17:03 - Oct 15 by 442Dale |
Why is it?
Not saying that should happen, but there’s nothing wrong with debating it. |
Only read page 1 sorry… | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 17:10 - Oct 15 with 3004 views | 442Dale |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 17:05 - Oct 15 by blackdogblue |
Only read page 1 sorry… |
No problem. | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 20:51 - Oct 15 with 2748 views | fermin |
Hereford are an ex-League club (not legally but same fanbase) with similar home attendances to ours. I imagine they were reformed with the long-term ambition of getting back to the EFL if finances allow. Someone on the other thread mentioned that their playing budget was £300k. Other people have very patronisingly called them and our other part-time opponents pub teams. I am not sure what Hereford's ownership structure is but I believe it may be partly supporter-owned.
It seems to me that the alternative to an investor is not liquidation but a future as a club like Hereford without going through what happened to them and Bury etc. It also occurs to me that without an investor or the parachute payments we probably do not have the financial or voluntary resources to fund a full-time club. So one question for this discussion is how important is it for us as fans to stay full time and gamble on getting back to the EFL or see the National League as our level perhaps as part-time or low-paid full time club? To what extent are we prepared to take that psychological step as other fanbases (like Hereford) have had to do before us? What is more important to us - EFL status at all costs including selling out to an outside 'investor' or a community/supporter-owned club in the NL or NLN?
If we are prepared to accept the second option (which we might be forced to by circumstances) then that takes a bit of the pressure off finding an investor as we can plan ahead on that basis or plan to do so if we do not return to the EFL by the end of next season. That does not mean compromising on putting out a competitive entertaining team but it does mean compromising on the level we play at. Those who look down on our part-time league opponents are overlooking the fact that they are very successful clubs in their own rights.
Speaking purely for myself, I accepted in my own mind that the second option was a likely outcome if we voted for the fan-owned approach as we did at the EGM in 2021. That does not mean I wanted us to be relegated out of the EFL only that I assumed it would make it more likely to happen at some point. Now that we are in the NL I am not that bothered about it from a status point of view provided the club remains financially viable and stays solvent. |  | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 21:21 - Oct 15 with 2658 views | D_Alien |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 20:51 - Oct 15 by fermin |
Hereford are an ex-League club (not legally but same fanbase) with similar home attendances to ours. I imagine they were reformed with the long-term ambition of getting back to the EFL if finances allow. Someone on the other thread mentioned that their playing budget was £300k. Other people have very patronisingly called them and our other part-time opponents pub teams. I am not sure what Hereford's ownership structure is but I believe it may be partly supporter-owned.
It seems to me that the alternative to an investor is not liquidation but a future as a club like Hereford without going through what happened to them and Bury etc. It also occurs to me that without an investor or the parachute payments we probably do not have the financial or voluntary resources to fund a full-time club. So one question for this discussion is how important is it for us as fans to stay full time and gamble on getting back to the EFL or see the National League as our level perhaps as part-time or low-paid full time club? To what extent are we prepared to take that psychological step as other fanbases (like Hereford) have had to do before us? What is more important to us - EFL status at all costs including selling out to an outside 'investor' or a community/supporter-owned club in the NL or NLN?
If we are prepared to accept the second option (which we might be forced to by circumstances) then that takes a bit of the pressure off finding an investor as we can plan ahead on that basis or plan to do so if we do not return to the EFL by the end of next season. That does not mean compromising on putting out a competitive entertaining team but it does mean compromising on the level we play at. Those who look down on our part-time league opponents are overlooking the fact that they are very successful clubs in their own rights.
Speaking purely for myself, I accepted in my own mind that the second option was a likely outcome if we voted for the fan-owned approach as we did at the EGM in 2021. That does not mean I wanted us to be relegated out of the EFL only that I assumed it would make it more likely to happen at some point. Now that we are in the NL I am not that bothered about it from a status point of view provided the club remains financially viable and stays solvent. |
Great post, refreshing to read
I wouldn't be the first to wonder why the Trust aren't taking a lead with these types of discussions. If i'm doing the Trust an injustice, and this is being discussed as we speak, why on earth are we not hearing about it, and engaged to become part of it?
It's not impossible in the longer term to lower our baseline expectations (in line with reality?), start to enjoy watching our football again (i'm still not) AND push for a return to the football league. Why do i believe that? Because, so many clubs are in a similar boat, or may soon find themselves there. It might even be possible to steal a march on others by going for "lowered-baseline option before we collapse or get shafted by new owners" and therefore find ourselves at an advantage, in the medium term; but that's the type of thinking that's required
[Post edited 15 Oct 2023 21:25]
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:02 - Oct 15 with 2587 views | mikehunt |
Do you think we could carry on playing at Spotland were we to reduce our base-line expectations? |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:13 - Oct 15 with 2553 views | D_Alien |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:02 - Oct 15 by mikehunt |
Do you think we could carry on playing at Spotland were we to reduce our base-line expectations? |
That would be part of the equation, and was certainly part of the discussion (initiated by TS on this forum) back in the spring, prior to the series of Trust meetings
Included in that equation (and i know how much this will irritate some) is the Hornets situation. If they're no longer going to be viable in their current format, it's absolutely essential for the Dale board and Trust to be planning for this. There will be positives but almost certainly negatives
It's a well-established fact that Rochdale Council have a soft spot for Hornets. If a new, more viable ground was to be planned, it would probably include both us and them again, but this could be used by Dale as leverage with the council. This is also why it;s vital Spotland stays in Dale ownership, and not used to leverage a deal with potential investors
Time is running out | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:39 - Oct 15 with 2500 views | RAFCBLUE |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:02 - Oct 15 by mikehunt |
Do you think we could carry on playing at Spotland were we to reduce our base-line expectations? |
Surely, in those circumstances being described, to deliver success our Trust has to reach a much bigger/majority shareholding either via buying some more shares or asking fans who own shares already to donate them to the Trust?
Hereford are 50% owned by their Supporters Trust:
https://www.hust.org.uk/
Exeter City's Supporters Trust own 53.6% of Exeter City.
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/
Newport County's fans saved their club with a majority ownership and most have now voted a former Premier League Chairman in Huw Jenkins in to join them.
https://www.ncafctrust.org/join/
Could our Trust play a similar role? The shares that exist are all there and everyone who owns them is a fan of the club. |  |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 10:52 - Oct 16 with 2191 views | Dalenet |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:39 - Oct 15 by RAFCBLUE |
Surely, in those circumstances being described, to deliver success our Trust has to reach a much bigger/majority shareholding either via buying some more shares or asking fans who own shares already to donate them to the Trust?
Hereford are 50% owned by their Supporters Trust:
https://www.hust.org.uk/
Exeter City's Supporters Trust own 53.6% of Exeter City.
https://www.weownexetercityfc.co.uk/
Newport County's fans saved their club with a majority ownership and most have now voted a former Premier League Chairman in Huw Jenkins in to join them.
https://www.ncafctrust.org/join/
Could our Trust play a similar role? The shares that exist are all there and everyone who owns them is a fan of the club. |
If you strip out the shares held by the Board, what percentage of the shares are held by fans and the Trust. 30%, 40%??? I am not suggesting that the Board are not fans, but they have to look at their shareholding differently.
As for the suggestion that we look at the feasibility of becoming part time and 100% fan owned, personally I'd see that as a last resort. Not at all rubbishing those clubs that have had to do it, and as somebody said, even a part time club trains 3 or 4 times a week and pays out £300k a year in wages. Is that much different to the training our full time boys get? But if we go down this route, realistically we are resigned to non league football forever as the chances of ever bouncing back are tiny. No real income from cup competitions and no financial support from the pyramid. I wouldn't bother travelling 300 miles to and from a home game to watch a part time non league club with no ambition. We are struggling to attract younger fans as it is. I can only foresee a downward spiral.
The chairman said in his BBC Manchester interview last month that we felt we could go up this season and that we were playing attractive football. Did I expect him to say anything else? But we aren't playing good enough football to get promoted back to the football league and the financial plan for 2024/25 will need some fairly deep cuts. He needs to be planning for a sustained NL existence and be open and honest with fans and shareholders about budgets and costs. And the squad for next season will need to cost what we can afford. And if Jim doesn't like that then he will need to move on. We have top 7 attendances in this league and we charge away fans some of the highest ticket prices in non league football. Our income could be a lot lower than it is. Some commercial nous and it could be £500k higher. We are not a basket case if we are run as a tight ship. | | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 11:08 - Oct 16 with 2146 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 22:13 - Oct 15 by D_Alien |
That would be part of the equation, and was certainly part of the discussion (initiated by TS on this forum) back in the spring, prior to the series of Trust meetings
Included in that equation (and i know how much this will irritate some) is the Hornets situation. If they're no longer going to be viable in their current format, it's absolutely essential for the Dale board and Trust to be planning for this. There will be positives but almost certainly negatives
It's a well-established fact that Rochdale Council have a soft spot for Hornets. If a new, more viable ground was to be planned, it would probably include both us and them again, but this could be used by Dale as leverage with the council. This is also why it;s vital Spotland stays in Dale ownership, and not used to leverage a deal with potential investors
Time is running out |
Time is defo running out and not the time for silence..
On your thought of a new viable ground, putting the Loan Charge on the ground aside, the current stadium is owned not mortgaged.
It was widely discussed the subject of a new training facility and the only suitable land seemed to be at Kingwsay Park Industrial Estate. What would the Spotland land be worth commercially, a couple of million?
How much would a new ground cost to build?, if the media is read to be believed FC United's little ground cost £6.3 million with a £2 million grant and that was a good few years ago.
Can't see that being an option if I am honest DA unless Mayfield offer to remark one of their pitches for us, where else is there? | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 18:03 - Oct 16 with 1839 views | James1980 |
Was told that in the town development plan a site had been earmarked for a potential stadium in believe it was in the Kingsway area | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 19:29 - Oct 16 with 1732 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 18:03 - Oct 16 by James1980 |
Was told that in the town development plan a site had been earmarked for a potential stadium in believe it was in the Kingsway area |
Yep… Kingsway park industrial estate.. keep up mate 😀 | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 19:45 - Oct 16 with 1706 views | James1980 |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 19:29 - Oct 16 by blackdogblue |
Yep… Kingsway park industrial estate.. keep up mate 😀 |
Training facility but no mention of stadium itself  | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 08:34 - Oct 17 with 1505 views | Dale_4_Life |
Its a very worrying time and we need honest consultation with the board.
If we have to drastically cut the cloth further to survive I would accept that with a heavy heart even if it meant another drop to tier 6.
I get the impression we are on a knife edge and still losing money week in week out. Something pretty big (in a bad way) feels just around the corner. | | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 10:43 - Oct 17 with 1431 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 19:45 - Oct 16 by James1980 |
Training facility but no mention of stadium itself |
Shared ground with the Biffos ring any bells James? | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 13:08 - Oct 17 with 1298 views | pioneer |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 10:43 - Oct 17 by blackdogblue |
Shared ground with the Biffos ring any bells James? |
Biffos already sharing with Oldham rugby with some financial contribution from Oldham council to help make this happen. I think that ship has already sailed. | | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 13:51 - Oct 17 with 1250 views | Dalenet |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 08:34 - Oct 17 by Dale_4_Life |
Its a very worrying time and we need honest consultation with the board.
If we have to drastically cut the cloth further to survive I would accept that with a heavy heart even if it meant another drop to tier 6.
I get the impression we are on a knife edge and still losing money week in week out. Something pretty big (in a bad way) feels just around the corner. |
We shouldn't be losing money so heavily if we have cut our cloth for this division. What is the wages budget - £1.5m? Add £500k to run the stadium and another £500k for marketing/administration and the likes. We shouldn't be spending more than £2.5m - about half what we were spending 4 years ago. The shareholders haven't been told - all we know is that two directors needed to throw more cash into the mix. With sponsorship, the parachute money, matchday income and a little bit of TV cash we should be close to break even. I wonder whether we really have cut the playing budget to £1.5m? | | | |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 14:00 - Oct 17 with 1243 views | James1980 |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 10:43 - Oct 17 by blackdogblue |
Shared ground with the Biffos ring any bells James? |
Not the proposed amalgamation club? | |
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| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 16:12 - Oct 17 with 1087 views | blackdogblue |
| No cup run money / Dale Trust supporters meeting on 14:00 - Oct 17 by James1980 |
Not the proposed amalgamation club? |
Sorry mate… saw this on X & thought of you 😀😀😀
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