| After match thread: York. Our football club 18:55 - Dec 16 with 12009 views | 442Dale |
Firstly, credit to the players and the staff for getting a point when we have so few players available at present. We can break down the tactics, style of play and other such things for forever, but we’re in the top half with about 14/15 first teamers available.
The biggest issue is the overall state of the club and where we stand. The lack of clarity around this and the way we waste weeks and months as supporters continue to seek answers on what the situation is and what we can do to help is, quite obviously, unacceptable.
It’s extremely disappointing that, despite an obvious commitment from many fans and constant requests for that clarity, we now need to focus on this week’s AGM to try and move forward. The time that has been wasted could prove critical, far too many let it pass, however we hope that there’s still some light at the end of what seems a very long tunnel of uncertainty and apathy. [Post edited 16 Dec 2023 19:00]
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 19:52 - Dec 17 with 2788 views | blackdogblue |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 18:58 - Dec 17 by D_Alien |
Following on from this, let's look at a specific issue: the Trust board having sight of monthly financial updates
In the minutes of the meeting between the Trust and BoD, monthly updates are contentious (beyond the Trust rep) due to issues of confidentiality, around which further discussions are due to take place
When just about the most important thing on everyone's minds right now is "can we survive another month" and "will the players and staff get paid for Christmas", what benefit would it be to the Trust board as a whole to have sight of the current financials if, bound by an NDA, the Trust can't communicate with its members in order to try to effect change other than "we need to raise some money" which we all know?
[Post edited 17 Dec 2023 19:00]
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Some of Cloughy’s legacy went towards the scoreboard to generate some sponsorship…
In the next 2 weeks more chance of raising the Titanic than funds.. |  |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 20:21 - Dec 17 with 2695 views | 49thseason |
It would be interesting to know exactly why the NL turned down the attempt by the directors to lend the club money secured on the ground, especially when there is no other debt associated with the ground and other clubs seem to have been able to do similar deals.
Other clubs also seem able to issue interest paying bonds as a way of raising capital, £2000, 5% bond would pay £100 off my ST costs every year and would be more tempting than buying shares
https://www.theposh.com/pufcbond/bond |  | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 20:39 - Dec 17 with 2633 views | RAFCBLUE |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 20:21 - Dec 17 by 49thseason |
It would be interesting to know exactly why the NL turned down the attempt by the directors to lend the club money secured on the ground, especially when there is no other debt associated with the ground and other clubs seem to have been able to do similar deals.
Other clubs also seem able to issue interest paying bonds as a way of raising capital, £2000, 5% bond would pay £100 off my ST costs every year and would be more tempting than buying shares
https://www.theposh.com/pufcbond/bond |
We have that ability already 49th.
Within the Articles of Association, the directors of the club may issue preference shares with a cumulative preference dividend not exceeding 5% for a period not exceeding 3 years.
The only proviso is that the club can't issue more preference shares than subscribed ordinary shares.
That's a way to raise up to circa £1m at 5% without diluting control and couldn't be objected to be the National League. |  |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 22:35 - Dec 17 with 2445 views | 49thseason |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 20:39 - Dec 17 by RAFCBLUE |
We have that ability already 49th.
Within the Articles of Association, the directors of the club may issue preference shares with a cumulative preference dividend not exceeding 5% for a period not exceeding 3 years.
The only proviso is that the club can't issue more preference shares than subscribed ordinary shares.
That's a way to raise up to circa £1m at 5% without diluting control and couldn't be objected to be the National League. |
I thought there was something about 5% Prefs. but I couldn't recall the details.
The problem is that people may not have the confidence to invest if they thought the club was going bust. maybe if they set a threshold of say £250k of public interest before going ahead people might feel more secure. Perhaps combined with some clarity on the overall finances and some obvious cuts to the overheads. Having said that I have lost money investing in better looking companies that this so...who knows , its a leap of faith at best. | | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 07:21 - Dec 18 with 2251 views | James1980 |
Perhaps not directly and the alternative to leave them in the hands of Morton House was untenable. But had they not had to spend the money on those shares. The list is inexhaustible as to what it could have been used for. |  |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 08:11 - Dec 18 with 2196 views | 442Dale |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 07:21 - Dec 18 by James1980 |
Perhaps not directly and the alternative to leave them in the hands of Morton House was untenable. But had they not had to spend the money on those shares. The list is inexhaustible as to what it could have been used for. |
“Perhaps”
We can only go off what we have been told by the club. | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 08:34 - Dec 18 with 2176 views | James1980 |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 08:11 - Dec 18 by 442Dale |
“Perhaps”
We can only go off what we have been told by the club. |
Would the extra money have enabled better decisions to have been made though? | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 09:28 - Dec 18 with 2090 views | ChaffRAFC |
Seen a few posts on here stating how other clubs are struggling and how we aren't the only ones. Also about what's been and gone.
I don't doubt any of it, I don't, but WE'RE worrying about the future of OUR club and we need to figure out, and fast what WE are going to do about it.
We know all that's been and gone as well. But it's gone. What are WE doing NOW. |  |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:13 - Dec 18 with 2016 views | TalkingSutty |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 09:28 - Dec 18 by ChaffRAFC |
Seen a few posts on here stating how other clubs are struggling and how we aren't the only ones. Also about what's been and gone.
I don't doubt any of it, I don't, but WE'RE worrying about the future of OUR club and we need to figure out, and fast what WE are going to do about it.
We know all that's been and gone as well. But it's gone. What are WE doing NOW. |
We can't do anything because we don't know what's going on in the background. We have a Trust and a Trust Director who are in place to act on behalf of the fans and report back their findings. That should be enough to keep the fans updated but it obviously isn't. I suspect that's not the Trusts fault though.
The Trust do have a plan B should things go pear shaped, it was discussed in a open meeting in the Ratcliffe a couple of months ago and they have the expertise of other supporters Trusts to fall back on and advise should they need it. That was the response when help was offered to finalise a plan. Over the last 12 months plenty of individuals have offered to help the Chairman and those in the Boardroom. Chris Dunphy and his consortium, journalists, well meaning fans...the Chairman didnt even have the courtesy to reply or discuss the offers of help.The way Dunphy was rounded on would probably mean he woudnt get involved with the club now anyway. Others have also contacted the Trust voicing their concerns during that period.
We also have a large percentage of shareholders and fans who have chosen to remain quiet or back the board, they are entitled to do that. So now we could be at the witching hour and I would suggest that it's too late now for the fans to do anything, your plea should have been made months and months ago along with hundreds of others because what we are seeing now hasnt come as a surprise. If we need to find £100k next month to keep the club going, pay the wages how are we going to do that? Raising £20k won't make any difference. The fans should have got hold of the club a long time ago when it was suddenly put up for sale but we didn't. Out of interest what do you suggest we should do now Chaff? The time to act unfortunately was last year. I would suggest a Christmas miracle is required, if not then administration might be the best outcome and let's rebuild the club again at a sustainable level with a new Chairman and set of directors in place. As a fan base we have a bad habit of ignoring the blindingly obvious and just letting those in the Boardroom do what they want with the Club. Instead of being pro-active we are reactionary and this is what we are seeing now. Those who voice their concerns are often viewed as scaremongering , derided in some quarters, and treated like the enemy, when in fact they are the complete opposite. [Post edited 18 Dec 2023 10:32]
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:25 - Dec 18 with 1960 views | ChaffRAFC |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:13 - Dec 18 by TalkingSutty |
We can't do anything because we don't know what's going on in the background. We have a Trust and a Trust Director who are in place to act on behalf of the fans and report back their findings. That should be enough to keep the fans updated but it obviously isn't. I suspect that's not the Trusts fault though.
The Trust do have a plan B should things go pear shaped, it was discussed in a open meeting in the Ratcliffe a couple of months ago and they have the expertise of other supporters Trusts to fall back on and advise should they need it. That was the response when help was offered to finalise a plan. Over the last 12 months plenty of individuals have offered to help the Chairman and those in the Boardroom. Chris Dunphy and his consortium, journalists, well meaning fans...the Chairman didnt even have the courtesy to reply or discuss the offers of help.The way Dunphy was rounded on would probably mean he woudnt get involved with the club now anyway. Others have also contacted the Trust voicing their concerns during that period.
We also have a large percentage of shareholders and fans who have chosen to remain quiet or back the board, they are entitled to do that. So now we could be at the witching hour and I would suggest that it's too late now for the fans to do anything, your plea should have been made months and months ago along with hundreds of others because what we are seeing now hasnt come as a surprise. If we need to find £100k next month to keep the club going, pay the wages how are we going to do that? Raising £20k won't make any difference. The fans should have got hold of the club a long time ago when it was suddenly put up for sale but we didn't. Out of interest what do you suggest we should do now Chaff? The time to act unfortunately was last year. I would suggest a Christmas miracle is required, if not then administration might be the best outcome and let's rebuild the club again at a sustainable level with a new Chairman and set of directors in place. As a fan base we have a bad habit of ignoring the blindingly obvious and just letting those in the Boardroom do what they want with the Club. Instead of being pro-active we are reactionary and this is what we are seeing now. Those who voice their concerns are often viewed as scaremongering , derided in some quarters, and treated like the enemy, when in fact they are the complete opposite. [Post edited 18 Dec 2023 10:32]
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When I say us, I meant as a club, not just a fanbase TS.
What are we as a club doing other than praying for an investor?
It was also brought up at the Trust EGM about transparency of the situation and a really good point was made that if we need help now, why aren't we being made aware because in 4/6/12 months if we're being asked it will probably be too late and we could have been trying to fund raise etc in that time.
It's just grating on me that we're evidently in a poor financial situation but all I'm hearing is, well other clubs are too, and something that happened 3/4 years ago by other people is the reason. These things are true, but just blaming others and saying others are struggling aren't going to help us right now.
This post has been edited by an administrator | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:35 - Dec 18 with 1917 views | 442Dale |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:25 - Dec 18 by ChaffRAFC |
When I say us, I meant as a club, not just a fanbase TS.
What are we as a club doing other than praying for an investor?
It was also brought up at the Trust EGM about transparency of the situation and a really good point was made that if we need help now, why aren't we being made aware because in 4/6/12 months if we're being asked it will probably be too late and we could have been trying to fund raise etc in that time.
It's just grating on me that we're evidently in a poor financial situation but all I'm hearing is, well other clubs are too, and something that happened 3/4 years ago by other people is the reason. These things are true, but just blaming others and saying others are struggling aren't going to help us right now.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
The same point for clarity was made at the Trust meetings with fans at the end of last season. And again at the meeting with fans in August before the Bromley game. And again at the meeting with fans in October before the Oldham game.
It has been constantly reiterated how time will be the biggest enemy. We’ve wasted so much of it. | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:39 - Dec 18 with 1892 views | TalkingSutty |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:25 - Dec 18 by ChaffRAFC |
When I say us, I meant as a club, not just a fanbase TS.
What are we as a club doing other than praying for an investor?
It was also brought up at the Trust EGM about transparency of the situation and a really good point was made that if we need help now, why aren't we being made aware because in 4/6/12 months if we're being asked it will probably be too late and we could have been trying to fund raise etc in that time.
It's just grating on me that we're evidently in a poor financial situation but all I'm hearing is, well other clubs are too, and something that happened 3/4 years ago by other people is the reason. These things are true, but just blaming others and saying others are struggling aren't going to help us right now.
This post has been edited by an administrator |
Agree with all of that and one poster in particular is very quick to pontificate about other clubs and suggest every club is in the same boat. I don't think we have 4 months left of this to be honest Chaff. One thing that does disappoint me is how passive our fan base in general is, very few voice their concerns and it enables those in the Boardroom to just carry on with the status quo. | | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:57 - Dec 18 with 1851 views | RAFCBLUE |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:39 - Dec 18 by TalkingSutty |
Agree with all of that and one poster in particular is very quick to pontificate about other clubs and suggest every club is in the same boat. I don't think we have 4 months left of this to be honest Chaff. One thing that does disappoint me is how passive our fan base in general is, very few voice their concerns and it enables those in the Boardroom to just carry on with the status quo. |
Isn't the best solution then for the Trust to buy up some or all of the remaining available shares that are available and take a bigger slice of ownership and running of the club?
If the Trust does end up buying the shares it can appoint new or reaffirm existing directors and then run and fund the club to the appropriate level possible.
I can only find one example of a currently financially sustainable club in the Championship or lower that does not rely on owner contributions and that is Exeter City in League 1.
There are 95 I can find that are so reliant on owners they are bust without them or lose such sums of money chasing the next tier of football that the minute their funding runs out they are stuck.
If there are other financially sustainable clubs in the EFL or lower it would be great to see them or learn from them but I genuinely don't believe they exist.
Happy to be proved wrong on that if examples can be provided but looking at a lot of data on it suggests that most clubs are not financially sustainable.
I don't agree with your pessimism over 4 months lefts either. It's inevitable in January 2024 we'll sell Nevett and perhaps a couple of the other young players to bigger clubs and that will cover this season. It's been the way over the last decade the the deficit is managed. | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:27 - Dec 18 with 1780 views | TalkingSutty |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:57 - Dec 18 by RAFCBLUE |
Isn't the best solution then for the Trust to buy up some or all of the remaining available shares that are available and take a bigger slice of ownership and running of the club?
If the Trust does end up buying the shares it can appoint new or reaffirm existing directors and then run and fund the club to the appropriate level possible.
I can only find one example of a currently financially sustainable club in the Championship or lower that does not rely on owner contributions and that is Exeter City in League 1.
There are 95 I can find that are so reliant on owners they are bust without them or lose such sums of money chasing the next tier of football that the minute their funding runs out they are stuck.
If there are other financially sustainable clubs in the EFL or lower it would be great to see them or learn from them but I genuinely don't believe they exist.
Happy to be proved wrong on that if examples can be provided but looking at a lot of data on it suggests that most clubs are not financially sustainable.
I don't agree with your pessimism over 4 months lefts either. It's inevitable in January 2024 we'll sell Nevett and perhaps a couple of the other young players to bigger clubs and that will cover this season. It's been the way over the last decade the the deficit is managed. |
You're concentrating too much on EFL Clubs. Football exists outside the EFL and before the Trust and fans can do anything we have to overcome the obstacle that has blocked the fans since the current Chairman and Directors bought back the MH shares...the absolute lack of real communication and clarity when it comes to the financial state of the club and the plans in place to help to fill any financial black hole. We hear nothing as a fan base and it's not just from the Chairman, the CEO should be pivotal when it comes to reaching out to the wider community, I don't think I've ever heard him speak. These are the people supposedly fronting the sale of the club, its worrying. There must be a gagging order in place or something. The whole club has to jump to Simons tune, it's pretty pathetic to be honest and should have been stopped at source last year by those inside the club. | | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:29 - Dec 18 with 1766 views | ChaffRAFC |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:57 - Dec 18 by RAFCBLUE |
Isn't the best solution then for the Trust to buy up some or all of the remaining available shares that are available and take a bigger slice of ownership and running of the club?
If the Trust does end up buying the shares it can appoint new or reaffirm existing directors and then run and fund the club to the appropriate level possible.
I can only find one example of a currently financially sustainable club in the Championship or lower that does not rely on owner contributions and that is Exeter City in League 1.
There are 95 I can find that are so reliant on owners they are bust without them or lose such sums of money chasing the next tier of football that the minute their funding runs out they are stuck.
If there are other financially sustainable clubs in the EFL or lower it would be great to see them or learn from them but I genuinely don't believe they exist.
Happy to be proved wrong on that if examples can be provided but looking at a lot of data on it suggests that most clubs are not financially sustainable.
I don't agree with your pessimism over 4 months lefts either. It's inevitable in January 2024 we'll sell Nevett and perhaps a couple of the other young players to bigger clubs and that will cover this season. It's been the way over the last decade the the deficit is managed. |
We're not an EFL club.
We're not fishing in the same pond as the likes of Exeter.
How reliant on sole ownership are the likes of Darlington, Curzon Ashton, Kidderminster, Solihull, Fylde? I don't know the answer to that question btw but we're not an EFL club at this moment and we're probably closer to those clubs mentioned than Exeter City in terms of financial capability. | |
| If I hadn't seen such riches, I could live with being poor |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:51 - Dec 18 with 1701 views | Duckegg |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 10:57 - Dec 18 by RAFCBLUE |
Isn't the best solution then for the Trust to buy up some or all of the remaining available shares that are available and take a bigger slice of ownership and running of the club?
If the Trust does end up buying the shares it can appoint new or reaffirm existing directors and then run and fund the club to the appropriate level possible.
I can only find one example of a currently financially sustainable club in the Championship or lower that does not rely on owner contributions and that is Exeter City in League 1.
There are 95 I can find that are so reliant on owners they are bust without them or lose such sums of money chasing the next tier of football that the minute their funding runs out they are stuck.
If there are other financially sustainable clubs in the EFL or lower it would be great to see them or learn from them but I genuinely don't believe they exist.
Happy to be proved wrong on that if examples can be provided but looking at a lot of data on it suggests that most clubs are not financially sustainable.
I don't agree with your pessimism over 4 months lefts either. It's inevitable in January 2024 we'll sell Nevett and perhaps a couple of the other young players to bigger clubs and that will cover this season. It's been the way over the last decade the the deficit is managed. |
If selling Nevett and a few other players like Sinclair raise enough to keep the club afloat this season and before the season cards are up for sale then so be it priority is saving tbe club...
The manager must be allowed to sign loan replacements and not plod along minus 2 or 3 players hoping that the team keeps it NL membership....
If Dale do sell whoever in January then those months from their departure through to the summer preseason should be enough time to formulate a plan between the trust and whoever is on the BoD to consolidate the club and move on.... |  | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:51 - Dec 18 with 1699 views | RAFCBLUE |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:29 - Dec 18 by ChaffRAFC |
We're not an EFL club.
We're not fishing in the same pond as the likes of Exeter.
How reliant on sole ownership are the likes of Darlington, Curzon Ashton, Kidderminster, Solihull, Fylde? I don't know the answer to that question btw but we're not an EFL club at this moment and we're probably closer to those clubs mentioned than Exeter City in terms of financial capability. |
Exeter's switch to Trust Ownership started when they were relegated to the National League / Conference in 2003, their Trust having only formed in 2000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_City_Supporters%27_Trust
There are significant similarities between where we are now and where Exeter were then. It is all credit to them that they are moving on with it still after 20 years.
In terms of the others, my understanding is:
Darlington - Darlo's Trust owns 87% of the club and private individuals own 13%. They made a loss of £173,883 in FY2022 and in June 2023 fund raised some new shares.
Curzon Ashton - owned by 108 shareholders. They made a loss of £62,121 in the year ended 31 August 2022. Their accounts show they are insolvent apart from the support of their shareholders.
Kidderminster Harriers - bit like us. Owned by hundreds of small shareholders but over 80% is owned by one person - Richard Lane. They made a profit in the year ended 31 May 2022 of £0.3m; after an FA Cup run. Net assets of £50k.
Solihull Has three major shareholders - Darryl Eales, Timothy Murphy and Calvin Barnett who have over 30% between them. Solihull Moors Football Club CIC (Community Interest Company) lost £1.4m in the year ended June 2021 (June 2022 has not been published yet).
EDIT: June 2022 has been published; they lost £1.8m in that financial year.
Fylde Owned by David Haythornthwaite and John Conlin Davis. Lost £0.8m in the year ended May 2022.
As you say, similar to us and all losing money funded by shareholders. [Post edited 18 Dec 2023 11:57]
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 12:29 - Dec 18 with 1594 views | James1980 |
Some of the comments towards the board on social media, considering the money they've put into the club to keep us afloat have been extremely disrespectful. However the problem is that it appears that the board have tarred the fan base in it's entirety due to comments of a vitriolic minority.
The board should explain exactly what they think has gone awry. Where they expecting bigger crowds, have sponsorship deals, sales from the club shop not been as lucrative as hoped? Did paying off Stockdale and Bentley eat up the slack in the budget? | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 12:43 - Dec 18 with 1554 views | 442Dale |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 12:29 - Dec 18 by James1980 |
Some of the comments towards the board on social media, considering the money they've put into the club to keep us afloat have been extremely disrespectful. However the problem is that it appears that the board have tarred the fan base in it's entirety due to comments of a vitriolic minority.
The board should explain exactly what they think has gone awry. Where they expecting bigger crowds, have sponsorship deals, sales from the club shop not been as lucrative as hoped? Did paying off Stockdale and Bentley eat up the slack in the budget? |
A request for clarity was made at the Trust meetings with fans at the end of last season. And again at the meeting with fans in August before the Bromley game. And again at the meeting with fans in October before the Oldham game. Throughout all of this time, there was a stated desire from many supporters to establish what could be done to help. It’s ridiculous that months and months later we’re still going round in circles about what to do next.
It’s also completely unsurprising.
It has been constantly reiterated how time will be the biggest enemy. We’ve wasted so much of it. | |
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| After match thread: York. Our football club on 16:40 - Dec 18 with 1210 views | Crede_Sign0 |
Given the sh1t house order we’re in,
what’s the point of owning a mortgageless stadium? | | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 17:44 - Dec 18 with 1125 views | Dale_4_Life |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 16:40 - Dec 18 by Crede_Sign0 |
Given the sh1t house order we’re in,
what’s the point of owning a mortgageless stadium? |
The hole we are in is a big one but we can fill it in I think with some joined up effort.
Re-mortgaging and not re-structuring could make the hole just to big and there could be no coming back. | | | |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 18:24 - Dec 18 with 1027 views | fermin |
| After match thread: York. Our football club on 11:51 - Dec 18 by RAFCBLUE |
Exeter's switch to Trust Ownership started when they were relegated to the National League / Conference in 2003, their Trust having only formed in 2000
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exeter_City_Supporters%27_Trust
There are significant similarities between where we are now and where Exeter were then. It is all credit to them that they are moving on with it still after 20 years.
In terms of the others, my understanding is:
Darlington - Darlo's Trust owns 87% of the club and private individuals own 13%. They made a loss of £173,883 in FY2022 and in June 2023 fund raised some new shares.
Curzon Ashton - owned by 108 shareholders. They made a loss of £62,121 in the year ended 31 August 2022. Their accounts show they are insolvent apart from the support of their shareholders.
Kidderminster Harriers - bit like us. Owned by hundreds of small shareholders but over 80% is owned by one person - Richard Lane. They made a profit in the year ended 31 May 2022 of £0.3m; after an FA Cup run. Net assets of £50k.
Solihull Has three major shareholders - Darryl Eales, Timothy Murphy and Calvin Barnett who have over 30% between them. Solihull Moors Football Club CIC (Community Interest Company) lost £1.4m in the year ended June 2021 (June 2022 has not been published yet).
EDIT: June 2022 has been published; they lost £1.8m in that financial year.
Fylde Owned by David Haythornthwaite and John Conlin Davis. Lost £0.8m in the year ended May 2022.
As you say, similar to us and all losing money funded by shareholders. [Post edited 18 Dec 2023 11:57]
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Important to note from that piece that Exeter were bailed out to a large extent by a two games against Manchester United in 2005 including a draw at Old Trafford. Prior to that they were in a very bad state financially due to very dodgy owners. They also went into admin and paid back 7.1p in the pound, which was another big factor in clearing their debts.
If you look at the accounts of our competitors they are all in debt supported by their owners or shareholders with one or two exceptions (and even then I am not sure). However, to be honest as a non-accountant I find it difficult to interpret exactly what is going on with subsidies from 'outside' sources. Some club accounts are very limited in detail as well because they are small companies. |  | | |
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