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Ah, February 2nd, 2024 - Groundhog Day in Punxsutawney, a spectacle where, in a twist of fate, the groundhog saw the shadow of Little Jim McNulty and scurried back to its den. This act, folks, is the epitome of doing the same thing over and over, expecting a different outcome. So, brace yourselves for six more weeks of:
Execs weaving tales of doom and gloom, waxing lyrical about our sheer luck in having not just a team, but the right to have a team. Or was it the right to have the right to a team? It starts to sound like one of those movies that leaves you with a migraine.
Manager Little Jim, spinning tales so thick with clichés it feels like he graduated top of his class from the University of Baffle-speak, majoring in Chocolate Box Clichés 101.
Tactics? More like tip-toe tactics. Playing as if they're scared to dirty their kit because someone used the last of the Fairy Non-Bio. Seriously, at one point D'Mani Mellor was charging down their keeper, and I thought, "Here we go, it's on!" But no, after five passes, we're back with our defense, playing it as safe as a John Lewis display mannequin.
And the commentators? Listening to them is like tuning into the Chinese Communist Party's spokesperson — always on message. How about some guest commentators who sound like actual fans? A bit of Northern bluntness and humor wouldn't go amiss. There was a moment when D'Mani Mellor was subbed off, and the commentator actually said, "Great game from D'Mani, put in a real shift, no assists, no goals, but great effort." Really? If that's the bar for greatness, then I'm an undiscovered football prodigy.
So, it seems we're in for six more weeks of the team going through the motions, standing around like showroom dummies, probably daydreaming they were Manchester City.
Maybe I should've taken up golf. At least there, when you talk to yourself about doing the same thing and expecting a different result, it's just called practicing your swing.
4
Groundhog day ... again on 21:33 - Feb 13 with 1943 views
In those accounts, just over £300k was raised as sponsorship and commercial (source: 2022 AGM). 5.6% of turnover.
A 20% hike on season ticket prices, assuming we maintain current numbers of buyers, would generate c. £250k additional income, but that presumes no risk in such a price hike.
The club does analyse matchday attendance and can identify pay on the day sales.
The maths there doesnt work Judd. 20% rise in season ticket prices will generate (ex VAT) about £75k extra revenue if everybody swallows the increase. We need to remember that there are many kids/youth/concessionary prices amongst our fan base.
I said earlier that Chesterfield, with a fan base of more than double ours, raises c£2m from gate receipts/season tickets in total and another £2m from commercial income and grants. If we think that the existing 2200 or so loyal fans will generate 75% of our revenue we are kidding ourselves - aspiring to get to 50% is reasonable. Very simplistically our survival is dependent on retaining 100% of our season ticket holders, doing everything we can to boost attendances through targeted marketing, finding ways to encourage existing fans to spend more than just their ticket price, and making Spotland work for us and generating another £10k per week, every week of the year.
In addition to cup prize money, TV money, and any leage monies, we need to have a plan to drive £2m into the club every year.
I was downheartend by the Board reponse to the Trust questions lately. It felt like driving income was too hard. Why did we buy the Radcliffe Arms back if it wasn't to make money throughout the year, not just on 23 days a year. Why have we outsourced the matchday catering if there is now no income for the club. Why did we buy the ground back if it wasn't to drive revenue from the stadium 364 days a year (that was one of the arguments at the time). Why did the shop not have stuff to sell for Christmas. Why didn't we sell half season tickets in December (and bang the comms out the day after the boxing day game to get the newbie fans engaged)? I know we have lost 2 out of 3 of the commercial team, but we will just spiral downwards unless we fix this.
[Post edited 13 Feb 21:43]
1
Groundhog day ... again on 21:44 - Feb 13 with 1903 views
In 2018/19, they averaged 2,033 In 2019/20, it was 2,228 (season cut short) In 2021/22, their first in League One, the average was 4,310 Last season, also in League One, it was 4,572 This season, back in League Two, it's currently 3,999.
What did they do that we didn't to almost double their average home crowd after a promotion and to see it still at almost 4,000 after relegation.
I know there would have been a new ground syndrome for a lot of visiting fans, but there has to be more to it than that, as Morecambe's own home support has grown significantly in the last five years.
In short, good marketing and support from the town following winning at Wembley in May 2021. Their playoff final attendance was 9,083.
What did they do that we didn't?
It looks like the answer is retain the interest of the Wembley experience. Our gate was over 35,000.
They made profits in 2021 and 2022 of the back of those attendances too and don't look like they have heavily discounted.
Their premium season tickets and normal tickets are priced well above our so the combination of (a) exciting winning football (b) retention of the Wembley crowd and (c) not discounting on relegation back to League 2.
They're charging £469 (£20.39 per game) for premium seats and £199 (£8.65 per game); that's a good number of percentage points above our revenue per attendee.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Groundhog day ... again on 21:33 - Feb 13 by Dalenet
The maths there doesnt work Judd. 20% rise in season ticket prices will generate (ex VAT) about £75k extra revenue if everybody swallows the increase. We need to remember that there are many kids/youth/concessionary prices amongst our fan base.
I said earlier that Chesterfield, with a fan base of more than double ours, raises c£2m from gate receipts/season tickets in total and another £2m from commercial income and grants. If we think that the existing 2200 or so loyal fans will generate 75% of our revenue we are kidding ourselves - aspiring to get to 50% is reasonable. Very simplistically our survival is dependent on retaining 100% of our season ticket holders, doing everything we can to boost attendances through targeted marketing, finding ways to encourage existing fans to spend more than just their ticket price, and making Spotland work for us and generating another £10k per week, every week of the year.
In addition to cup prize money, TV money, and any leage monies, we need to have a plan to drive £2m into the club every year.
I was downheartend by the Board reponse to the Trust questions lately. It felt like driving income was too hard. Why did we buy the Radcliffe Arms back if it wasn't to make money throughout the year, not just on 23 days a year. Why have we outsourced the matchday catering if there is now no income for the club. Why did we buy the ground back if it wasn't to drive revenue from the stadium 364 days a year (that was one of the arguments at the time). Why did the shop not have stuff to sell for Christmas. Why didn't we sell half season tickets in December (and bang the comms out the day after the boxing day game to get the newbie fans engaged)? I know we have lost 2 out of 3 of the commercial team, but we will just spiral downwards unless we fix this.
[Post edited 13 Feb 21:43]
That point about the catering definitely needs highlighting. From the Trust report after a supporter asked about the subject, this was the response:
<<“ Feedback from supporters has largely been positive, and there are no plans to changes partners ahead of 24/25 as it stands. We are happy to pass on any individual requests to Scratch for consideration. It should be remembered that only a relatively small percentage of revenue from kiosks flows back to the club.”
That last line considering our current situation is quite bizarre.
Groundhog day ... again (n/t) on 22:06 - Feb 12 by A_Newby
[Post edited 13 Feb 19:27]
Oh, there was a link to a Google sheet here earlier. Where's it gone? It was very interesting and remarkably relevant to some other things being discussed.
As OMC would say, "How bizarre!"
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
1
Groundhog day ... again on 21:53 - Feb 13 with 1866 views
In short, good marketing and support from the town following winning at Wembley in May 2021. Their playoff final attendance was 9,083.
What did they do that we didn't?
It looks like the answer is retain the interest of the Wembley experience. Our gate was over 35,000.
They made profits in 2021 and 2022 of the back of those attendances too and don't look like they have heavily discounted.
Their premium season tickets and normal tickets are priced well above our so the combination of (a) exciting winning football (b) retention of the Wembley crowd and (c) not discounting on relegation back to League 2.
They're charging £469 (£20.39 per game) for premium seats and £199 (£8.65 per game); that's a good number of percentage points above our revenue per attendee.
So they’re much better than we are. That’s what makes the many missed opportunities over the years so frustrating to supporters.
And yet still we hear excuses, little accountability and no visible plan to how we will improve. As always, a collective failing. Edit: also note the tone of that update in 2022.
At least we can see what’s possible. Cheers for posting.
<<“ Feedback from supporters has largely been positive, and there are no plans to changes partners ahead of 24/25 as it stands. We are happy to pass on any individual requests to Scratch for consideration. It should be remembered that only a relatively small percentage of revenue from kiosks flows back to the club.”
That last line considering our current situation is quite bizarre.
The board have made it clear they’ve no capacity to drive value out of any aspect of the club. Reference Their recent response to the question about offers for help. They are just ticking it over until they sell. The board are an obstacle to change. They are slowly shutting down the life support systems. We need them to sell and get out of the way - only then can the great ideas you and so many others have on here can start to be implemented.
1
Groundhog day ... again on 21:56 - Feb 13 with 1837 views
In short, good marketing and support from the town following winning at Wembley in May 2021. Their playoff final attendance was 9,083.
What did they do that we didn't?
It looks like the answer is retain the interest of the Wembley experience. Our gate was over 35,000.
They made profits in 2021 and 2022 of the back of those attendances too and don't look like they have heavily discounted.
Their premium season tickets and normal tickets are priced well above our so the combination of (a) exciting winning football (b) retention of the Wembley crowd and (c) not discounting on relegation back to League 2.
They're charging £469 (£20.39 per game) for premium seats and £199 (£8.65 per game); that's a good number of percentage points above our revenue per attendee.
Aye
When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf?
0
Groundhog day ... again on 21:58 - Feb 13 with 1827 views
Groundhog day ... again on 21:33 - Feb 13 by Dalenet
The maths there doesnt work Judd. 20% rise in season ticket prices will generate (ex VAT) about £75k extra revenue if everybody swallows the increase. We need to remember that there are many kids/youth/concessionary prices amongst our fan base.
I said earlier that Chesterfield, with a fan base of more than double ours, raises c£2m from gate receipts/season tickets in total and another £2m from commercial income and grants. If we think that the existing 2200 or so loyal fans will generate 75% of our revenue we are kidding ourselves - aspiring to get to 50% is reasonable. Very simplistically our survival is dependent on retaining 100% of our season ticket holders, doing everything we can to boost attendances through targeted marketing, finding ways to encourage existing fans to spend more than just their ticket price, and making Spotland work for us and generating another £10k per week, every week of the year.
In addition to cup prize money, TV money, and any leage monies, we need to have a plan to drive £2m into the club every year.
I was downheartend by the Board reponse to the Trust questions lately. It felt like driving income was too hard. Why did we buy the Radcliffe Arms back if it wasn't to make money throughout the year, not just on 23 days a year. Why have we outsourced the matchday catering if there is now no income for the club. Why did we buy the ground back if it wasn't to drive revenue from the stadium 364 days a year (that was one of the arguments at the time). Why did the shop not have stuff to sell for Christmas. Why didn't we sell half season tickets in December (and bang the comms out the day after the boxing day game to get the newbie fans engaged)? I know we have lost 2 out of 3 of the commercial team, but we will just spiral downwards unless we fix this.
On your point about Chesterfield's ticket revenue, Chesterfield's prices are also well above ours, compounded by bigger attendances.
They're also spending well above what they bring in losing £0.4m in 2021 and £2.0m in 2022, but have recently raised new capital via share placings to individuals.
George Bernard Shaw had it right:
"He who can does; he who cannot, teaches."
https://www.visittheusa.co.uk/
Groundhog day ... again on 21:53 - Feb 13 by 442Dale
So they’re much better than we are. That’s what makes the many missed opportunities over the years so frustrating to supporters.
And yet still we hear excuses, little accountability and no visible plan to how we will improve. As always, a collective failing. Edit: also note the tone of that update in 2022.
At least we can see what’s possible. Cheers for posting.
[Post edited 13 Feb 21:56]
Not necessarily.
We took something like 17,000 people to Wembley in May 2008.
Nearly six times the average home attendance that season and lost. Average attendance that season was 3,057.
The following year we reached the playoffs again and didn't go up and the average attendance was 3,222 (just +5% on the Wembley season).
The promotion season of 2010 saw and average attendance of 3,443 and then the 9th place league one finish was 3,537.
Four great season on the bounce and the average crowd went up 480 over four years.
When we were relegated and were back in League 2 the attendances dropped to 2,900 (so down 5% on the 2008 Wembley season).
We've then tried everything. Under Russ Green tried cheap tickets, had League 1 football but the data over 25 years shows has never moved.
There are two factors that flattered our attendances in the good times: (1) Winning football (2) Decent away followings
We still haven't found even a third of the Wembley crowd, except on a rare special occasion.
United away in the Carabao cup in 2019 springs to mind. How many did we take there - 9,000?
The home game before Man United (from Soccerbase) - 2,659 vs Lincoln. The home game after Man United (from Soccerbase) - 3,039 vs Wycombe
Where did all those people come from and go afterwards?
The data says that compared to other towns (TVOS used Morecambe which is a fair comparator) our town cares less about its club than others.
The masses didn't come when times were great. It's even harder to drag them here when times are tough. We can't float anymore on several good away attendances.
It's frustrating but just the way it is, has always been and likely always will be.
Groundhog day ... again on 22:26 - Feb 13 by RAFCBLUE
Not necessarily.
We took something like 17,000 people to Wembley in May 2008.
Nearly six times the average home attendance that season and lost. Average attendance that season was 3,057.
The following year we reached the playoffs again and didn't go up and the average attendance was 3,222 (just +5% on the Wembley season).
The promotion season of 2010 saw and average attendance of 3,443 and then the 9th place league one finish was 3,537.
Four great season on the bounce and the average crowd went up 480 over four years.
When we were relegated and were back in League 2 the attendances dropped to 2,900 (so down 5% on the 2008 Wembley season).
We've then tried everything. Under Russ Green tried cheap tickets, had League 1 football but the data over 25 years shows has never moved.
There are two factors that flattered our attendances in the good times: (1) Winning football (2) Decent away followings
We still haven't found even a third of the Wembley crowd, except on a rare special occasion.
United away in the Carabao cup in 2019 springs to mind. How many did we take there - 9,000?
The home game before Man United (from Soccerbase) - 2,659 vs Lincoln. The home game after Man United (from Soccerbase) - 3,039 vs Wycombe
Where did all those people come from and go afterwards?
The data says that compared to other towns (TVOS used Morecambe which is a fair comparator) our town cares less about its club than others.
The masses didn't come when times were great. It's even harder to drag them here when times are tough. We can't float anymore on several good away attendances.
It's frustrating but just the way it is, has always been and likely always will be.
It’s ok, we know about what’s happened at Dale. It’s been enlightening to see how other clubs can get more positive results looking at that info from Morecambe.
We’ve seen how, through all of those good times and examples of bigger crowds, we have failed to capitalise again and again because of the lack of visible, consistent planning - something supporters/the Trust and the club have fallen short on. That we are asking where the fans go each time is illustrative of the problem. The question should be what did we do to make them come back again - a culture that has needed changing since Hill took over.
We need only go back down the years on this very message board and elsewhere to see how people have tried to influence positive change, but for that to ever happen there has to be a commitment to want to change and maximise what we have. Without excuses. Instead there has been little in the way of a visible, consistent plan to engage with existing fans and attract new ones.
It’s noticeable on that Morecambe story there’s an apology and an admittance of mistakes. Tone and attitude tell a story.
In short, good marketing and support from the town following winning at Wembley in May 2021. Their playoff final attendance was 9,083.
What did they do that we didn't?
It looks like the answer is retain the interest of the Wembley experience. Our gate was over 35,000.
They made profits in 2021 and 2022 of the back of those attendances too and don't look like they have heavily discounted.
Their premium season tickets and normal tickets are priced well above our so the combination of (a) exciting winning football (b) retention of the Wembley crowd and (c) not discounting on relegation back to League 2.
They're charging £469 (£20.39 per game) for premium seats and £199 (£8.65 per game); that's a good number of percentage points above our revenue per attendee.
Morecambe don't have to compete with the big Manchester clubs for support
That's been our problem since hardly anyone else watched Dale when i was at school in the 60s/70s
On your point about Chesterfield's ticket revenue, Chesterfield's prices are also well above ours, compounded by bigger attendances.
They're also spending well above what they bring in losing £0.4m in 2021 and £2.0m in 2022, but have recently raised new capital via share placings to individuals.
They are also less sentimental and more ruthless with fans with regard to meeting costs.
So a whole bunch of oldies were paying 50 quid and not going….assuming these wont pay 300 quid not to go they will be losing revenue from them to offset additional revenue from any old folk who do lay out more.
These 80 year olds are probably folks who stuck with the club through all the bad days.
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Groundhog day ... again on 22:57 - Feb 14 with 1229 views
Groundhog day ... again on 20:17 - Feb 13 by Rodingdale
I don’t agree with Fitzo, he sees what he sees, has his own view; and I get that as a journo he probably wants to maintain relationships with McNulty for professional reasons. But it doesn’t make him right. What I, and the people who I sit with see, its a bore fest. People turn up because they have bought season tickets in blind hope and it’s a habit. But they are the same people. We need to attract new people, hundreds of them - first by pricing sensibly in a low income town and then providing entertainment on the pitch.
I’m not talking about attendances holding up, I’m talking about growing them, break the mould - but a Saturday afternoon has to be more fun than it is at the moment to get people to come back.
I see what I see. True. It doesn’t make me right. True. But my opinion is never to placate anyone else other than myself, so you can hoist that assumption back into the rafters. I stand by everything I’ve said.
I’ve said before that I can put entertainment secondary to winning. I appreciate not everyone feels that way. We were, until recently, in a play-off position, though. That’ll have done for me, entertaining or not. The evidence, game by game, with the goals we’ve scored, illustrates we do not play just one way. It is notable that when we win, this criticism is conspicuous by its absence.
If our form and performances become interlinked in a consistently negative fashion, I’ll have concerns about it, and I’ll vocalise them, as I’ve done every season I’ve supported Dale. However, if we start winning again and hang around the play-offs, I can’t see how that’s an issue, given the financial plight of the club and everything else going on. It would be massive overachievement as far as I’m concerned.
As to Jim's post match ' we all need to learn lesson, look at ourselves' coming to Damascus moment. Here is a parody underlying the leadership at our club:
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