| Heading debate 13:54 - Nov 22 with 3069 views | James1980 |
What are your thoughts on this current debate regarding heading the ball and possibly links to dementia? |  |
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| Heading debate on 14:01 - Nov 22 with 2471 views | foreverhopefulDale |
It has to be properly scientifically looked into, and if proven links to dementia then recommendations and guidelines have to be brought in to minimise risk to participating people in the sport. It could well be that with the much lighter footballs used these days, that the problems have largely gone away and that no further action is required. [Post edited 22 Nov 2020 14:06]
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| Heading debate on 14:17 - Nov 22 with 2446 views | D_Alien |
There was a pretty extensive and sometimes heated thread on this earlier in the year, James
I'd simply like to mention one thing: just because an elderly ex-footballer develops dementia doesn't mean it was brought about by heading. A particular case in point is Sir Bobby Charlton, who's recent diagnosis (following that of his brother, Jack) might lead some to add him to the list. And it might be valid, but...
Anyone familiar with Charlton's career will know he very rarely headed the ball. He was very much a "get it down and play" type and his instant control on either foot allowed him to do that. The one goal i can remember him scoring with his head was the opener in the 1968 European Cup Final, and that became noteworthy since no-one could recall him scoring with his head previously! (Although he almost certainly will have done.) And that was a glancing header rather than a full-on smack of the ball
People can develop dementia for lots of reasons. There may be something familial in the case of the Charltons, and any investigation will need to pay heed to dementia being something that can develop independently of heading a ball, which is why studies are so difficult to conduct
[Post edited 22 Nov 2020 14:17]
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| Heading debate on 14:30 - Nov 22 with 2406 views | James1980 |
| Heading debate on 14:17 - Nov 22 by D_Alien |
There was a pretty extensive and sometimes heated thread on this earlier in the year, James
I'd simply like to mention one thing: just because an elderly ex-footballer develops dementia doesn't mean it was brought about by heading. A particular case in point is Sir Bobby Charlton, who's recent diagnosis (following that of his brother, Jack) might lead some to add him to the list. And it might be valid, but...
Anyone familiar with Charlton's career will know he very rarely headed the ball. He was very much a "get it down and play" type and his instant control on either foot allowed him to do that. The one goal i can remember him scoring with his head was the opener in the 1968 European Cup Final, and that became noteworthy since no-one could recall him scoring with his head previously! (Although he almost certainly will have done.) And that was a glancing header rather than a full-on smack of the ball
People can develop dementia for lots of reasons. There may be something familial in the case of the Charltons, and any investigation will need to pay heed to dementia being something that can develop independently of heading a ball, which is why studies are so difficult to conduct
[Post edited 22 Nov 2020 14:17]
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https://www.fansnetwork.co.uk/football/rochdale/forum/253062/page:1 this one you mean | |
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| Heading debate on 14:33 - Nov 22 with 2404 views | ncfc_chalky |
Is it even a problem any more with the introduction of lighter balls?
I can remember almost being knocked out by a rain drenched leather football at school back in the day but I doubt that balls are that heavy now days |  |
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| Heading debate on 14:46 - Nov 22 with 2384 views | foreverhopefulDale |
Nothing wrong in debating something again, especially if new information about it comes through. Maybe you could have added to the previous thread, but it doesn’t really matter, considering we often end up with numerous threads on the same issue, like match day threads. | |
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| Heading debate on 15:02 - Nov 22 with 2364 views | Shun |
I remember it well! And reading that has brought back some once-familiar names like Rochdale-ranger and kiwidale.
I had my say at the time and my view hasn’t changed since - even the most superficial head trauma can cause grave problems down the line, so an object travelling at high velocity repeatedly coming into contact with your head will naturally only go one way.
It’s absolutely the right decision to ban it for children. I can’t see it ever being banned in the adult game and I’m not really sure how the powers that be can help. |  | | |
| Heading debate on 15:47 - Nov 22 with 2318 views | 49thseason |
It's probably the case that getting elbowed or the clashing of heads is the bigger cause of dementia than heading the ball these days although I do worry for Peter Vincenti, having to head on all those miles-high clearances from Lillis a few seasons ago.
The AI scanning that is currently starting to appear will, in due course, be able to spot and measure brain problems caused by head bangs and its relative cheapness will enable early decisions to be made about who needs further treatment. I can see boxers, rugby players and footballers needing annual scans before too long.
https://www.alzheimers-brace.org/what-happens-to-the-brain-in-alzheimers?gclid=C |  | | |
| Heading debate on 16:04 - Nov 22 with 2293 views | ncfc_chalky |
I've never heard of the term 'Lick-spitale' before  | |
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| Heading debate on 17:55 - Nov 22 with 2231 views | Nigeriamark |
| Heading debate on 15:47 - Nov 22 by 49thseason |
It's probably the case that getting elbowed or the clashing of heads is the bigger cause of dementia than heading the ball these days although I do worry for Peter Vincenti, having to head on all those miles-high clearances from Lillis a few seasons ago.
The AI scanning that is currently starting to appear will, in due course, be able to spot and measure brain problems caused by head bangs and its relative cheapness will enable early decisions to be made about who needs further treatment. I can see boxers, rugby players and footballers needing annual scans before too long.
https://www.alzheimers-brace.org/what-happens-to-the-brain-in-alzheimers?gclid=C |
The question is not does heading a ball or not directly cause dementia, but does it cause something called CTE ( Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) which can then lead to dementia or Alzheimers. CTE might sound a complicated medical disease but in layman's terms it asks does repeated knocks to the head/brain affect the way the brain works & in some cases dementia/alzheimers. Unfortunately at the moment it is only possible to diagnose CTE during a post-mortem which also unfortunately is a bit late to help them !!
NFL has pretty much shown that helmet to helmet collisions do have an effect and they have changed their rules accordingly. In our football the collisions are less impactful, so it needs to be determined if softer but more repetetive impacts have the same build up effects. at this stage until scans become better then we have to hope that relatives of football players allow their brains to be tested after they die, and this is then compared to the brains of people who haven't headed footballs over a long period of time. If it is shown to have an effect then we will have to do something about it ( difficult to know what in a game where heading is integral) or decide that it's acceptable ( Trump in 2017 when the NFL came out with the report decided it was worth it & the NFL changing the rules to prevent CTE was ruining the game). Big debates ahead when the research comes out for football |  | | |
| Heading debate on 18:10 - Nov 22 with 2209 views | 442Dale |
| Heading debate on 17:55 - Nov 22 by Nigeriamark |
The question is not does heading a ball or not directly cause dementia, but does it cause something called CTE ( Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy) which can then lead to dementia or Alzheimers. CTE might sound a complicated medical disease but in layman's terms it asks does repeated knocks to the head/brain affect the way the brain works & in some cases dementia/alzheimers. Unfortunately at the moment it is only possible to diagnose CTE during a post-mortem which also unfortunately is a bit late to help them !!
NFL has pretty much shown that helmet to helmet collisions do have an effect and they have changed their rules accordingly. In our football the collisions are less impactful, so it needs to be determined if softer but more repetetive impacts have the same build up effects. at this stage until scans become better then we have to hope that relatives of football players allow their brains to be tested after they die, and this is then compared to the brains of people who haven't headed footballs over a long period of time. If it is shown to have an effect then we will have to do something about it ( difficult to know what in a game where heading is integral) or decide that it's acceptable ( Trump in 2017 when the NFL came out with the report decided it was worth it & the NFL changing the rules to prevent CTE was ruining the game). Big debates ahead when the research comes out for football |
A lot of the work around CTE in the NFL and beyond was influenced by the work of former WWE wrestler Chris Nowinski who retired after suffering post concussion syndrome. It appears he’s stepped into this debate as well:
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| Heading debate on 18:18 - Nov 22 with 2192 views | D_Alien |
| Heading debate on 18:10 - Nov 22 by 442Dale |
A lot of the work around CTE in the NFL and beyond was influenced by the work of former WWE wrestler Chris Nowinski who retired after suffering post concussion syndrome. It appears he’s stepped into this debate as well:
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Ironically enough, that appears to show a young Bobby Charlton heading a football!
There also needs to be a much greater understanding of risk, or rather relative risk. It's one of the elements often missing in current debates around Covid too, not least because sometimes the stats can seem almost counter-intuitive | |
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| Heading debate on 19:29 - Nov 22 with 2143 views | 442Dale |
https://concussionfoundation.org/sites/default/files/Safer%20Soccer/Safer%20Socc
Reasonably concise read that especially focuses on kids heading the ball at a younger age.
<< 11. Conclusion
The scientific evidence paints a clear picture that heading a soccer ball will result in more concussions and repeated subconcussive brain trauma, both of which can have long term neurological consequences for adolescents and adults. Younger players are also both more likely to suffer a concussion and have more long term symptoms than older players. Eliminating heading before high school provides a tremendous opportunity to both reduce brain injury and also improve soccer skill development.>> [Post edited 22 Nov 2020 19:32]
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| Heading debate on 19:36 - Nov 22 with 2132 views | diver |
Graeme Souness has written an interesting short article on this in today’s Sunday Times.Basically he says outlawing heading would turn football into chess.Throw ins directed below waist height,free kicks?There will no more crossing the ball.Effectively the end result will be that football wii no longer be the most popular game.I cannot see an answer to this.Meanwhile boxing continues to flourish. | | | |
| Heading debate on 06:40 - Nov 23 with 1974 views | richfoad32 |
I think it's a good idea to ban it amongst organised games for children up to a certain age (though what heading there is in a lot of kids games I've seen is more the close eyes and hope for the best varierty.) It's a no brainer, no pun intended, that repeated blows to the head with anything is not going to be beneficial, particularly in your formative years.
But when you're old enough to make an informed decision and know the potential risks, then surely it's up to the individual? A lot of footballers make a handsome living from the game and like a lot of other less well paid professions there might be a potential downside in later life. You can't remove all risk from life and wrap people in cotton wool forever. | | | |
| Heading debate on 12:01 - Nov 23 with 1863 views | Nigeriamark |
| Heading debate on 06:40 - Nov 23 by richfoad32 |
I think it's a good idea to ban it amongst organised games for children up to a certain age (though what heading there is in a lot of kids games I've seen is more the close eyes and hope for the best varierty.) It's a no brainer, no pun intended, that repeated blows to the head with anything is not going to be beneficial, particularly in your formative years.
But when you're old enough to make an informed decision and know the potential risks, then surely it's up to the individual? A lot of footballers make a handsome living from the game and like a lot of other less well paid professions there might be a potential downside in later life. You can't remove all risk from life and wrap people in cotton wool forever. |
Agree totally. You have to make decisions for kids, but it's up to adults to make their own minds up. However even adults need to be given the full facts to do that. It's only the same as with boxing. As well as CTE boxers also run the risk of a burst vessel in the brain during a fight that can lead to death within 24 hours. I'm not sure how well CTE is known by boxers, but they certainly know they are in a risky sport yet some of them chose to do it | | | |
| Heading debate on 12:11 - Nov 23 with 1858 views | D_Alien |
| Heading debate on 12:01 - Nov 23 by Nigeriamark |
Agree totally. You have to make decisions for kids, but it's up to adults to make their own minds up. However even adults need to be given the full facts to do that. It's only the same as with boxing. As well as CTE boxers also run the risk of a burst vessel in the brain during a fight that can lead to death within 24 hours. I'm not sure how well CTE is known by boxers, but they certainly know they are in a risky sport yet some of them chose to do it |
Hopefully they'll all have chosen to do it - but we know what you mean! | |
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| Heading debate on 20:12 - Nov 26 with 1649 views | 442Dale |
A post from the daughter of Jimmy Robson, former Dale coach during the Sutton/Docherty era:
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| Heading debate on 04:53 - Nov 27 with 1566 views | foreverhopefulDale |
In a similar way that the Edwards family that owned Man U were butchers. Suppose in those days butchers made a lot more money. [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 5:00]
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| Heading debate on 07:40 - Nov 27 with 1537 views | pioneer |
| Heading debate on 04:53 - Nov 27 by foreverhopefulDale |
In a similar way that the Edwards family that owned Man U were butchers. Suppose in those days butchers made a lot more money. [Post edited 27 Nov 2020 5:00]
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Mainly by selling rotten meat to Education authorities for school meals | | | |
| Heading debate on 19:05 - Nov 29 with 1413 views | wimborne_dale |
It's the kinetic energy going through the brain that does the damage. If you double the weight of the ball, you double the kinetic energy. If you double the speed of the ball, you quadruple the kinetic energy so a lighter ball doesn't offer protection for the players.
In boxing, amateurs wear helmets so I think that should be considered as one option. Until the late 70s, you never saw a batsman with a helmet, now you never see one without, at any level of the game. Footballers head the ball far more in training than in matches. |  |
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| Heading debate on 19:26 - Nov 29 with 1400 views | D_Alien |
| Heading debate on 19:05 - Nov 29 by wimborne_dale |
It's the kinetic energy going through the brain that does the damage. If you double the weight of the ball, you double the kinetic energy. If you double the speed of the ball, you quadruple the kinetic energy so a lighter ball doesn't offer protection for the players.
In boxing, amateurs wear helmets so I think that should be considered as one option. Until the late 70s, you never saw a batsman with a helmet, now you never see one without, at any level of the game. Footballers head the ball far more in training than in matches. |
FWGM Helmit Schoen would probably have agreed | |
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| Heading debate on 21:33 - Nov 29 with 1347 views | pioneer |
| Heading debate on 19:26 - Nov 29 by D_Alien |
FWGM Helmit Schoen would probably have agreed |
As would helmut haller - that famous ball thief | | | |
| Heading debate on 14:24 - Dec 1 with 1248 views | TomRAFC |
A little knowledge is a dangerous thing, as the old adage goes. Over the last 12 years working towards becoming a senior clincian, I have had to read medical research to a high standard. Even now I still get absolutely foxed by the stuff! People's confidence in stating very forthright points on such topics often astounds me. I'm not having dig at anyone on here, it's more of a general point when it comes to conversations like this.
Plenty of relevant points have been made but there is one thing that perhaps doesn't get it's due place in the discussion; opting to take risks. I am rubbish at football but my sport of choice is Muay Thai. In short, I regularly get a good boot or clout. I am aware of this and opt to do it. I also love a good pint of ale far more than I sometimes should. I opt to do that too. We want decisions to be as informed as possible but, whatever the risks, should players be allowed to choose to take such risks? [Post edited 2 Dec 2020 0:11]
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