| Black managers 22:35 - Oct 30 with 23242 views | zxcvbnm |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34673088
Not being racist but surely it has to be a case of if you’re good enough you’ll get the job, this sort of ‘positive discrimination’ can be reverse racist (if that makes sense)
If someone like Jimmy-Floyd at Burton carries on the way he’s started then he’ll get his chance at a bigger club. There’s a reason Keith Curle hasn’t managed at the highest level the same reason that Steve Parkin didn’t, not quite good enough. The colour of skin doesn’t matter. |  |
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| Black managers on 14:49 - Oct 31 with 2274 views | ColDale |
| Black managers on 13:40 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
Are you talking about Rennie? Probably the worst ref i have ever seen. Didnt he send Townson off at Feethams once? He could have been any colour could Uriah, he would have still been terrible. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 13:42]
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No arguments regarding the red card that night. Only issue that night was Rennie ignoring the succession of fouls that Townson received in the run up to it and the lack of action from his own team mates when you could see him getting wound up. |  | | |
| Black managers on 14:59 - Oct 31 with 2258 views | ColDale |
There's no denying that historically there has been an issue regarding black managers been given a chance. Might be wrong, but am sure I read some stats with a massive disparity between the numbers taking coaching badges and those given coaching opportunities.
I don't think its helped that the high profile black managers have been as a result of being high profile players. I don't think anyone would have put John Barnes down as likely to be a decent manager, and looking at the England squad that Paul Ince was part of, there's not one of them has gone on to be a decent manager ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#.C2.A0England)
It should be as big a concern that lack of opportunities for English managers. Think there's only five out of twenty in the Premiership. | | | |
| Black managers on 15:14 - Oct 31 with 2241 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 14:59 - Oct 31 by ColDale |
There's no denying that historically there has been an issue regarding black managers been given a chance. Might be wrong, but am sure I read some stats with a massive disparity between the numbers taking coaching badges and those given coaching opportunities.
I don't think its helped that the high profile black managers have been as a result of being high profile players. I don't think anyone would have put John Barnes down as likely to be a decent manager, and looking at the England squad that Paul Ince was part of, there's not one of them has gone on to be a decent manager ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1998_FIFA_World_Cup_squads#.C2.A0England)
It should be as big a concern that lack of opportunities for English managers. Think there's only five out of twenty in the Premiership. |
You're right, historically there has been a problem. Is that still the case though, and would a quota system be helpful or a hindrance?
If prejudice does still exist, does giving a black person the chance of an interview realistically give them a better chance of getting the job? If the answer is no, the quota proposal will probably do more harm than good, in maintaining the profile of black people as somehow "different". |  |
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| Black managers on 15:24 - Oct 31 with 2226 views | SuddenLad |
You might ask why we need a Black PFA.
A professional footballer is exactly that. The PFA is what it is - an organisation that represents its' members, which happen to be professional footballers. Any other considerations are unnecessary.
What next ? PFA for goalkeepers ? Midfielders ? Nonsense. |  |
| “It is easier to fool people, than to convince them that they have been fooled†|
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| Black managers on 16:18 - Oct 31 with 2200 views | 1mark1 |
| Black managers on 06:37 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
If your good enough, who cares what colour your skin is. If Paul Ince was white he would still have a chip on both shoulders and a face like a slapped arse, he's just not a nice person. Keith Alexander was a good lower league manager and very well liked, he was a nice person and you could imagine footballers wanting to play for him.
John Barnes and Paul Ince are both very vocal and imply they are being held back because of their colour, they reality is they are both very poor managers.
Charlie Williams thrived in a very tough environment, he was capable of laughing at himself which is always a commendable trait. A much loved comedian with no chip on his shoulder. He was a nice person.
Just watching Sky News and their two presenters are both black which isn't something you normally see, they are excellent at their jobs and it's good to see.
Bottom line, if you are good at your job your colour is irrelevant. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 6:40]
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Totally correct. IF there was any proof of any discrimination against any section than fair enough look into it, but there does not APPEAR to be any. Maybe the there is just a lack of talent in coaching like there is in the playing side of things as to why there are more foreign managers than British managers in the top division, and a growing number of foreign managers in the FL.
Coaching of players and the training of managers and coaches obviously needs to be looked at. |  |
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| Black managers on 16:45 - Oct 31 with 2177 views | SalwaDale |
Most people involved in the NFL seem to think the Rooney rule has worked. I always thought it was a ridiculous idea, as why shortlist someone who you wouldn't have done because they won't get the job anyway. From what I have read though, it has increased the number of black coaches.
I've always seen positive discrimination as exactly that - discrimination. However, we don't live in an ideal world though and maybe it is something worth considering. I really don't know. |  |
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| Black managers on 17:31 - Oct 31 with 2143 views | dancdale |
There is an issue, across society and in football, of an undeniable statistical disparity with regard to the race ratio within senior positions compared to the base pool from which candidates emerge. Something which is reasonably attributed to notions of institutionalised racism.
If you think that its not an issue, that opportunity is blind to skin colour, that racism has been fixed now, then you are naive and ignorant as to the reality. As Porlicks alludes, such ignorance and naivety can be racially profiled as a predominately white affliction.
It is not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', it is level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. When 25% of the pool from which senior coaches and managers emerge are black, yet only 4% in employment at that level, there is an issue to be addressed. It is reasonable to propose that football clubs, given the role they play in society, take positive action towards doing so.
Those posters claiming there to be no issue, and who even seem somewhat aggrieved that the matter be raised, perhaps need to explain the 25% / 4% disparity to lend themselves credibility- as they do seem to be suffering from the white affliction somewhat. |  | | |
| Black managers on 17:37 - Oct 31 with 2128 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 17:31 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
There is an issue, across society and in football, of an undeniable statistical disparity with regard to the race ratio within senior positions compared to the base pool from which candidates emerge. Something which is reasonably attributed to notions of institutionalised racism.
If you think that its not an issue, that opportunity is blind to skin colour, that racism has been fixed now, then you are naive and ignorant as to the reality. As Porlicks alludes, such ignorance and naivety can be racially profiled as a predominately white affliction.
It is not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', it is level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. When 25% of the pool from which senior coaches and managers emerge are black, yet only 4% in employment at that level, there is an issue to be addressed. It is reasonable to propose that football clubs, given the role they play in society, take positive action towards doing so.
Those posters claiming there to be no issue, and who even seem somewhat aggrieved that the matter be raised, perhaps need to explain the 25% / 4% disparity to lend themselves credibility- as they do seem to be suffering from the white affliction somewhat. |
The issue isn't one of bandying statistics about, however valid they may be.
The issue is one of how to redress a perceived imbalance. In my opinion, positive discrimination is entirely the wrong approach, EVEN IF it leads to the imbalance being reduced. I've already stated my reasons why.
Essentially, Porlicks was accusing people who'd posted of either racism, or closet racism. He's utterly wrong-headed. Your post adds to the debate on the side of positive discrimination, which is fair enough if, I believe, misguided.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 17:45]
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| Black managers on 17:40 - Oct 31 with 2110 views | 442Dale |
Ruud Gullit was terrible at Newcastle. That needed addressing. |  |
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| Black managers on 17:44 - Oct 31 with 2098 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 17:40 - Oct 31 by 442Dale |
Ruud Gullit was terrible at Newcastle. That needed addressing. |
St. James Park, although it was known as the Sports Direct Arena for a while. Utterly misguided. | |
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| Black managers on 17:55 - Oct 31 with 2072 views | mightydale |
the rooney rule can that be classed as being racist ????? |  |
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| Black managers on 18:07 - Oct 31 with 2053 views | Bobbyjoe |
| Black managers on 17:31 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
There is an issue, across society and in football, of an undeniable statistical disparity with regard to the race ratio within senior positions compared to the base pool from which candidates emerge. Something which is reasonably attributed to notions of institutionalised racism.
If you think that its not an issue, that opportunity is blind to skin colour, that racism has been fixed now, then you are naive and ignorant as to the reality. As Porlicks alludes, such ignorance and naivety can be racially profiled as a predominately white affliction.
It is not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', it is level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. When 25% of the pool from which senior coaches and managers emerge are black, yet only 4% in employment at that level, there is an issue to be addressed. It is reasonable to propose that football clubs, given the role they play in society, take positive action towards doing so.
Those posters claiming there to be no issue, and who even seem somewhat aggrieved that the matter be raised, perhaps need to explain the 25% / 4% disparity to lend themselves credibility- as they do seem to be suffering from the white affliction somewhat. |
Eloquently put, and incontrovertible, dd, but most whiteys don't get it, even many who consider themselves liberal. |  | | |
| Black managers on 18:09 - Oct 31 with 2042 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 18:07 - Oct 31 by Bobbyjoe |
Eloquently put, and incontrovertible, dd, but most whiteys don't get it, even many who consider themselves liberal. |
Incontrovertible statistics, wrong approach to redressing it.
Who, btw, are "whiteys" ?
You? Me?
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:10]
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| Black managers on 18:19 - Oct 31 with 2020 views | TalkingSutty |
| Black managers on 17:31 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
There is an issue, across society and in football, of an undeniable statistical disparity with regard to the race ratio within senior positions compared to the base pool from which candidates emerge. Something which is reasonably attributed to notions of institutionalised racism.
If you think that its not an issue, that opportunity is blind to skin colour, that racism has been fixed now, then you are naive and ignorant as to the reality. As Porlicks alludes, such ignorance and naivety can be racially profiled as a predominately white affliction.
It is not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', it is level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. When 25% of the pool from which senior coaches and managers emerge are black, yet only 4% in employment at that level, there is an issue to be addressed. It is reasonable to propose that football clubs, given the role they play in society, take positive action towards doing so.
Those posters claiming there to be no issue, and who even seem somewhat aggrieved that the matter be raised, perhaps need to explain the 25% / 4% disparity to lend themselves credibility- as they do seem to be suffering from the white affliction somewhat. |
It still doesn't excuse Singh and Rennie purporting to be qualified referees though, try defending that!! |  | | |
| Black managers on 18:27 - Oct 31 with 1999 views | dancdale |
| Black managers on 18:19 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
It still doesn't excuse Singh and Rennie purporting to be qualified referees though, try defending that!! |
Why pick out Singh and Rennie if its not to mock perceived competency based on racial grounds? | | | |
| Black managers on 18:31 - Oct 31 with 1751 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 18:27 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
Why pick out Singh and Rennie if its not to mock perceived competency based on racial grounds? |
It's precisely the opposite, you fool.
TS was simply emphasising the point they were incompetent, full stop, as a counter to any argument based on racial grounds.
The trouble with you Guardianistas is you're so full of your own self-righteousness you can't see anything but prejudice, even where NONE exists.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:32]
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| Black managers on 18:34 - Oct 31 with 1735 views | TalkingSutty |
| Black managers on 18:27 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
Why pick out Singh and Rennie if its not to mock perceived competency based on racial grounds? |
Because I am highlighting them as possibly the worst two referees I have seen in nearly 40 years of watching football. Somebody posted earlier about black referees and my mind instantly flashed back to Rennie, the game was always about him. Ken Redfearn was the opposite, an excellent referee. If I could change the colour of their skins to please you i would, but the fact remains. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:35]
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| Black managers on 18:37 - Oct 31 with 1711 views | 442Dale |
| Black managers on 18:34 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
Because I am highlighting them as possibly the worst two referees I have seen in nearly 40 years of watching football. Somebody posted earlier about black referees and my mind instantly flashed back to Rennie, the game was always about him. Ken Redfearn was the opposite, an excellent referee. If I could change the colour of their skins to please you i would, but the fact remains. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:35]
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Ken Redfearn was a great referee, though you probably won't find the fans of the teams we played agreeing. | |
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| Black managers on 18:38 - Oct 31 with 1707 views | Bobbyjoe |
| Black managers on 18:31 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
It's precisely the opposite, you fool.
TS was simply emphasising the point they were incompetent, full stop, as a counter to any argument based on racial grounds.
The trouble with you Guardianistas is you're so full of your own self-righteousness you can't see anything but prejudice, even where NONE exists.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:32]
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The lady doth protest too much, methinks. | | | |
| Black managers on 18:39 - Oct 31 with 1700 views | TalkingSutty |
| Black managers on 18:37 - Oct 31 by 442Dale |
Ken Redfearn was a great referee, though you probably won't find the fans of the teams we played agreeing. |
Fred Ratcliffe used to send him a bottle of whisky every Xmas. | | | |
| Black managers on 18:40 - Oct 31 with 1700 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 18:38 - Oct 31 by Bobbyjoe |
The lady doth protest too much, methinks. |
Poor, Bobbyjoe
I'll counter any false accusations as vehemently as is my wont, and you have yet to answer my question as to who, exactly, are "whiteys"?
Glib phrases are no substitute for reasoned debate. | |
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| Black managers on 18:40 - Oct 31 with 1698 views | dancdale |
| Black managers on 18:34 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
Because I am highlighting them as possibly the worst two referees I have seen in nearly 40 years of watching football. Somebody posted earlier about black referees and my mind instantly flashed back to Rennie, the game was always about him. Ken Redfearn was the opposite, an excellent referee. If I could change the colour of their skins to please you i would, but the fact remains. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:35]
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In a thread about addressing ethnic disparity within football management- why obtusely shift to discussing incompetent referees, naming just two who happen to be of ethnic minority? | | | |
| Black managers on 18:48 - Oct 31 with 1674 views | Scunnydale |
Oi, who had a pop at "lefties"?! I'm often considered to be a leftie liberal but I can't fault most of the sentiments in this thread - if someone's good enough they should make it through. I don't like discrimination, positive or otherwise. Positive discrimination seems almost patronising.
If...IF...there are examples and proof of decent black managers (and those of other races) not being given a chance, then that needs to be addressed, for sure. However, if that's not the case, then there's little wrong with what's happening currently.
Most people will/have used Barnes, Ince and Jimmy Floyd as examples, and they're good examples . The first two failed in virtually all their appointments and have, as a result, disappeared from the merry-go-round. JFH and Chris Powell have so far proved they've got something about them and find themselves in employment. I wouldn't be surprised to see Vieira given a shot somewhere either. He seems to be going about it in a good way by gaining off-pitch experience with a view to eventually becoming a manager. Good luck to him, and whoever else (of whatever skin colour) puts in the hard yards to become a manager rather than relying solely on reputations formed during their playing careers. |  | | |
| Black managers on 18:48 - Oct 31 with 1674 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 18:40 - Oct 31 by dancdale |
In a thread about addressing ethnic disparity within football management- why obtusely shift to discussing incompetent referees, naming just two who happen to be of ethnic minority? |
Erm... because the debate is about ethnic minorities?
You couldn't make this type of false consciousness up! | |
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| Black managers on 18:49 - Oct 31 with 1667 views | dancdale |
| Black managers on 18:31 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
It's precisely the opposite, you fool.
TS was simply emphasising the point they were incompetent, full stop, as a counter to any argument based on racial grounds.
The trouble with you Guardianistas is you're so full of your own self-righteousness you can't see anything but prejudice, even where NONE exists.
[Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:32]
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I draw opinions from rational analysis of empirical evidence. If conflicting evidence or a contrary, rational argument is made apparent I adjust accordingly comrade. [Post edited 31 Oct 2015 18:49]
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