| Black managers 22:35 - Oct 30 with 23037 views | zxcvbnm |
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/football/34673088
Not being racist but surely it has to be a case of if you’re good enough you’ll get the job, this sort of ‘positive discrimination’ can be reverse racist (if that makes sense)
If someone like Jimmy-Floyd at Burton carries on the way he’s started then he’ll get his chance at a bigger club. There’s a reason Keith Curle hasn’t managed at the highest level the same reason that Steve Parkin didn’t, not quite good enough. The colour of skin doesn’t matter. |  |
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| Black managers on 17:43 - Nov 6 with 1850 views | D_Alien |
F**k me, I've been away for a couple of days and missed all this lot.
In the end, the points put forward by Dancdale and Bobbyjoe require discriminatory action in favour of interviewing someone on the basis of the colour of their skin.
Dancdale can quote whatever stats he likes - you can't change discrimination with another act of discrimination.
The fact that Dancdale can't even bear to think of it as discrimination (it's "positive action" innit) tells me he's not thinking straight. I don't doubt his intentions are good, but I doubt he's thought about the law of unintended consequences, which usually arises from good intentions.
Would anyone want to be the first black manager appointed following the introduction of the Rooney rule? There's enough pressure in the job without being under suspicion of having gained employment as a result of positive discrimination.
Much better, as others have stated, to allow the natural progression of the increasing number of black footballers to work it's way through the system, as it surely will. |  |
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| Black managers on 23:56 - Nov 6 with 1769 views | Bobbyjoe |
| Black managers on 17:43 - Nov 6 by D_Alien |
F**k me, I've been away for a couple of days and missed all this lot.
In the end, the points put forward by Dancdale and Bobbyjoe require discriminatory action in favour of interviewing someone on the basis of the colour of their skin.
Dancdale can quote whatever stats he likes - you can't change discrimination with another act of discrimination.
The fact that Dancdale can't even bear to think of it as discrimination (it's "positive action" innit) tells me he's not thinking straight. I don't doubt his intentions are good, but I doubt he's thought about the law of unintended consequences, which usually arises from good intentions.
Would anyone want to be the first black manager appointed following the introduction of the Rooney rule? There's enough pressure in the job without being under suspicion of having gained employment as a result of positive discrimination.
Much better, as others have stated, to allow the natural progression of the increasing number of black footballers to work it's way through the system, as it surely will. |
Equally, though, D,Alien, I would argue that, on the contrary, it would require people to eliminate discriminatory action, which is denying equally qualified people even from getting a hearing. Only if the Rooney rule prescribed an all-black shortlist, would the successful candidate have any cause to feel guilty about gaining his (or her) position. Indeed, having discharged his politically correct responsibility, a chairman would only go on to appoint the black candidate if he were genuinely convinced as to his merits. I believe your heart's in the right place, but you are genuinely wrong-headed on this issue (no offence!). It's simply not good enough to say to people labouring under an injustice, that they must be patient and wait for equality of opportunity to trickle down over time. |  | | |
| Black managers on 00:06 - Nov 7 with 1750 views | TVOS1907 |
| Black managers on 13:35 - Oct 31 by mikehunt |
And what are the FA doing about recruiting more black referees? Sweet FA is my guess. Since (thingy) quit, who used to ref at our level, I haven't seen another. Let's see how they sort that one out before jumping on clubs' backs. |
One of the linesman at the Salford v Notts County game tonight was black (Akil Howson) while the other was called Mr Khatib. |  |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Black managers on 00:08 - Nov 7 with 1749 views | D_Alien |
| Black managers on 23:56 - Nov 6 by Bobbyjoe |
Equally, though, D,Alien, I would argue that, on the contrary, it would require people to eliminate discriminatory action, which is denying equally qualified people even from getting a hearing. Only if the Rooney rule prescribed an all-black shortlist, would the successful candidate have any cause to feel guilty about gaining his (or her) position. Indeed, having discharged his politically correct responsibility, a chairman would only go on to appoint the black candidate if he were genuinely convinced as to his merits. I believe your heart's in the right place, but you are genuinely wrong-headed on this issue (no offence!). It's simply not good enough to say to people labouring under an injustice, that they must be patient and wait for equality of opportunity to trickle down over time. |
I'll admit it's personal. I'd detest being placed on a short list under the Rooney rule, especially if I belonged to a group of people with a physical characteristic which was deemed to be the subject of historical discrimination.
If black people have the same hearts as white people, I expect many of them would feel the same way. | |
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| Black managers on 08:18 - Nov 7 with 1684 views | nordenblue |
| Black managers on 00:08 - Nov 7 by D_Alien |
I'll admit it's personal. I'd detest being placed on a short list under the Rooney rule, especially if I belonged to a group of people with a physical characteristic which was deemed to be the subject of historical discrimination.
If black people have the same hearts as white people, I expect many of them would feel the same way. |
Theres no achievement in getting an opportunity simply due to the colour of your skin | | | |
| Black managers on 12:27 - Nov 7 with 1614 views | mikehunt |
| Black managers on 00:06 - Nov 7 by TVOS1907 |
One of the linesman at the Salford v Notts County game tonight was black (Akil Howson) while the other was called Mr Khatib. |
Were they good at their jobs? |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| Black managers on 12:43 - Nov 7 with 1595 views | TVOS1907 |
| Black managers on 12:27 - Nov 7 by mikehunt |
Were they good at their jobs? |
They seemed to be from what I saw. More use than Notts County anyway. | |
| When I was your age, I used to enjoy the odd game of tennis. Or was it golf? |
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| Black managers on 14:23 - Nov 7 with 1563 views | dancdale |
Go on then, i'll have another go.
No one, including me, is saying its about racist club directors refusing to appoint black managers, or giving/not sacking black managers jobs when theyre not seen as best for the job
theyre saying theres a systemic issue, which results in inequality of employment opportunity. As said in my first post - its not simply the boardroom choice of the 'best person for the job', its the level of opportunity and barriers along the way to becoming, and being recognised as that best person. That route from the bottom to the top which probably does still occasionally involve identifiably racist views/decisions, but also a multitude of incidents, choices, opinions, preconceptions, where in less obvious ways race can be a factor in the level of opportunity experienced. I suspect a big part of the solution is people becoming conscious of the issue, so they become less likely to act as such unconsciously.
to address it, it has to be accepted as existing- and I'll fully acknowledge that i personally dont know first hand if it does or not, im not aware of every experience someone of minority ethnicity trying to get into management has had. But equally those who have stated categorically that it doesnt exist have absolutely no idea either, and thats where the thread started- lots of people arrogantly dismissing it from a position of complete ignorance, and responding to someone who dared offer a different view far more disparagingly than any of my posts.
If you dont know something, dont state an opinion and expect it to be respected until you have first considered some evidence and have a rational argument based upon it.
The statistics referred to undeniably indicate a strong prevalence of inequality within football. if you recalibrate the bias involved to what should be an 'equal opportunity' coin-flip its consistently landing heads 9 times out of ten. Youd presume therefore the coin is weighted in someway.
but in addition to that, the concept of employment inequality itself is not football specific, and exists everywhere to varying extent. So unless its claimed football is a special exception despite the contrary evidence, theres a far wider pool of evidence that can be considered- and if you are to dismiss it completely, youre dismissing it existing in wider society too- which is a big call.
Statistics generally dont lie. there can be bad data collection, there can be bad analysis, and you could make a rational argument to challenge on those grounds if you found one- but studies usually follow fairly rigorous research procedures, peer review etc. Theres enough stuff out there to form a comprehensive case- and the notion its something invented by the political left is of course pathetic- when its existence and need to address it was a main point of camerons speech at the tory conference, its hardly playing to your audience- you can be pretty sure its happening.
I've not claimed to be an expert, or conducted research, just read bits- you dont have to look far outside mainstream media where it appears quite often, and its pretty obvious that if you want to hold a credible opinion based on the evidence- then existence of such inequality cant be denied. All the opinions expressed otherwise have been just that- individuals personal opinion with no valid basis, often expressed quite obnoxiously.
To see a cascade of posts outright refuting it as 'bollocks, pathetic, load of lefty shite' - 'skin colour doesnt matter anymore' - 'its because theyre not good enough' - well thats not good is it? it creates circular belief system resulting in a false consensus- and when the lack of awareness is part of the problem - and its a fairly significant society wide issue- then its important that gets challenged rather than respected as 'your opinion'
There were several 'nicer' posts by various people who did just that early in the thread- when those rational views get further dismissed as 'bollocks' again based on nothing but baseless personal opinion- I suggest thats whats arrogant, thats whats objectionable. rather than somebody who points out the truth of their opinion in response- albeit frankly.
Look at the nature of the other replies just within this thread, plenty similar/more objectionable that didnt raise an eyebrow, singling mine out as the worst in the history of the messageboard, along with the personal attacks was a little OTT. but there you go, its not a problem.
it was deliberately stated it in a manner that others might find as objectionable as I found their posts- to get it registered in the collective consciousness, if I offended a few sensibilities along the way to making a point then im sure theyll get over it. bobbyjoe insisted i play bad cop, to his good. blame him. Seems to have worked tho- id imagine an empirical study of the messageboards crass stupidity levels will find its dropped a little as a result of our excellent work.
other than that ive taken no moral position, claimed no superiority of opinion, accused no one of racism- thats what others are choosing to infer themselves. I just pointed out the statements being made were wrong, not morally wrong, not in my opinion wrong, but objectively identifiably not actually reality in any way - wrong.
As to addressing, theres plenty of action you can take which doesnt discriminate in anyway whatsoever. and the rooney rule is a perfectly acceptable thing to try
finished. might go watch some football. [Post edited 7 Nov 2015 17:27]
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