| QPR Finances released 06:25 - Feb 28 with 59010 views | Jeff |
From Kieran Maguire in the Twitter:
[Post edited 28 Feb 2023 6:29]
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| QPR Finances released on 09:56 - Feb 28 with 3316 views | TheChef |
| QPR Finances released on 09:49 - Feb 28 by Pikey |
Not going to comment on the accounts until someone who fully understands them posts a definitive view.
But I am amused that most postings blame Les and Hoos for not selling our best players and for over investing in others.
I'm sure I read on another string that Les and Hoos were to blame for us not keeping our best players and not signing anyone decent.
Ah well the life of a football fan. |
Well I'm curious to know who these best players are that clubs are queueing round the block to sign.
Sad things is we've reached a point where we no longer should aspire to Brentford, but to Luton and Millwall instead!! |  |
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| QPR Finances released on 09:57 - Feb 28 with 3314 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 09:54 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Can someone get the crayons out and explain how that training ground bit works? I thought investments made in your infrastructure didn't count towards FFP. |
It doesn't. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:02 - Feb 28 with 3256 views | Gloucs_R |
| QPR Finances released on 09:56 - Feb 28 by joe90 |
Just guessing but...
I imagine they're doing better than us because:
1: They've had a lower wage bill for longer
2: Running cost of the Den are lower
3: No FFP |
Maybe because we keep having brain farts and knee jerk reactions!
A more modern stadium, who'd have thought that would be a good idea ðŸ˜
I didn't think the FFP fine goes against the current FFP rules? |  |
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| QPR Finances released on 10:03 - Feb 28 with 3247 views | DejR_vu |
| QPR Finances released on 09:56 - Feb 28 by TheChef |
Well I'm curious to know who these best players are that clubs are queueing round the block to sign.
Sad things is we've reached a point where we no longer should aspire to Brentford, but to Luton and Millwall instead!! |
And we’re only going one way, to oblivion.
There is absolutely nothing to suggest that after 10 years of this regime anything will change. We will continue to get worse.We’ll slip into League One and the only way we’ll get out of it is when we fall into League Two. These owners have destroyed the club. This is death by a thousand cuts. |  |
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| QPR Finances released on 10:04 - Feb 28 with 3248 views | johnhoop |
| QPR Finances released on 09:36 - Feb 28 by MelakaRanger |
Players , Managers, Coaches increased from 113 to 136 in just 12 months. 23 extra! They cost on average £176,000 each per year.
So 23 extra at average of £176k = extra cost of £4million 1 Why do we need 23 more?
We seriously need to cut our cloth. And the whole of the Football League needs to re-evaluate the wages paid to players. There will be a number of our players on £10k or more per week. Who if anyone at QPR is worth paying half a million £s a year for?
Since Sky/Premiership came along 30 years ago the wages of players have lost all sence of reality - even more so in the Premiership.
But down here in the 'real world' the whole Football league needs to get real. How can any business pay out more than its income on wages along? Any normal business would go bust.
Rubens main business in Malaysia would never allow wages to get anywhere near income, like I say it would go bust. So why do Football clubs get treated differently? Why do (it appears) the majority of fans of clubs not 'get it'.
I think that FFP should be even more severe. On a rolling 3 years why shouldnt it be a zero loss?
And surely QPR cannot need even 113 players coaches and managers?
If we had say 80 in total (an arbitary figure) and the average annual wage was £120K (still a massive wage in the real world, our wages bill would only - yes only - be around 10 million. Nearly 15 million less that last years bill.
I love QPR. I've supported them since 1967. Football needs to take a reality check. Clubs are a business and if you keep making losses you should go bust |
Or alternatively ( and what would be hugely preferable for QPR), is that you could let the owners inject however much money they wanted into their clubs a long as they incurred the debt and it wasn’t loaded onto the clubs. It would enable our owners, if they wanted (and I think they probably do), to fund us to do more than simply hang on to survival by the skin of our teeth and I don’t see why it would lead to any more clubs going bust.
But of course I don’t think it’s going to happen and on the basis of these financial figures, if the rules remain the same they will condemn us to being a League Two club ( or worse ) in the none too distant future. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:06 - Feb 28 with 3218 views | slmrstid |
| QPR Finances released on 09:54 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Can someone get the crayons out and explain how that training ground bit works? I thought investments made in your infrastructure didn't count towards FFP. |
The training ground investment is a fixed asset investment that sits on the clubs balance sheet.
The figures do not touch the Profit & Loss account so are not part of the £24m loss.
There are probably some costs within that £24m that are not part of the FFP calculations, but without detailed access to the FFP submission and the club's management accounts it would be absolutely impossible for us to be able to state with any degree of confidence what the FFP loss is other than guessing it is the same as the published pre-tax loss. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 10:07]
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| QPR Finances released on 10:11 - Feb 28 with 3158 views | stainrods_elbow |
| QPR Finances released on 08:00 - Feb 28 by Rangersw12 |
Surely another nail in Hoos coffin |
I'm sure there's someone in a straitjacket on a locked ward somewhere burbling about how 'we're lucky to have him'. |  |
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| QPR Finances released on 10:20 - Feb 28 with 3098 views | BerkoRanger |
| QPR Finances released on 10:04 - Feb 28 by johnhoop |
Or alternatively ( and what would be hugely preferable for QPR), is that you could let the owners inject however much money they wanted into their clubs a long as they incurred the debt and it wasn’t loaded onto the clubs. It would enable our owners, if they wanted (and I think they probably do), to fund us to do more than simply hang on to survival by the skin of our teeth and I don’t see why it would lead to any more clubs going bust.
But of course I don’t think it’s going to happen and on the basis of these financial figures, if the rules remain the same they will condemn us to being a League Two club ( or worse ) in the none too distant future. |
I've always believed this should be the case. In any other walk of life, a wealthy person or owner can spend their wealth any way they want. I'm hoping FFP will ultimately be scrapped after the latest Man City investigation, because they are certainly unlikely to be punished with their clout / legal team. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:25 - Feb 28 with 3057 views | daveB |
| QPR Finances released on 10:06 - Feb 28 by slmrstid |
The training ground investment is a fixed asset investment that sits on the clubs balance sheet.
The figures do not touch the Profit & Loss account so are not part of the £24m loss.
There are probably some costs within that £24m that are not part of the FFP calculations, but without detailed access to the FFP submission and the club's management accounts it would be absolutely impossible for us to be able to state with any degree of confidence what the FFP loss is other than guessing it is the same as the published pre-tax loss. [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 10:07]
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Thanks, so basically we don't know how much the losses are towards FFP? |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:30 - Feb 28 with 3032 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 10:25 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Thanks, so basically we don't know how much the losses are towards FFP? |
Simon Dorset allows for £4mish of disallowable costs, so £20m. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:30 - Feb 28 with 3031 views | slmrstid |
| QPR Finances released on 10:25 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Thanks, so basically we don't know how much the losses are towards FFP? |
[Edit] Just removed my reply 'cos Clive got in there first with a better answer! [Post edited 28 Feb 2023 10:31]
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| QPR Finances released on 10:32 - Feb 28 with 3012 views | EastR |
| QPR Finances released on 09:54 - Feb 28 by daveB |
Can someone get the crayons out and explain how that training ground bit works? I thought investments made in your infrastructure didn't count towards FFP. |
For FFP (simplified) the relevant bits are the day to day income less the day to day costs, plus any player sales. This gives you your ‘Profit or Loss on Ordinary Activities (before tax)’.
In these accounts, adding relevant bits together this looks like:
Income £22.535m
Expenditure £47.202m
Loss £24.667
Most of the loss will count towards FPP calculations. We don’t have visibility on the bits that can be excluded but you can be sure it won’t be a significant amount to make much of a difference.
Infrastructure costs — stadium, training ground etc — are not counted as ordinary activities. They are capital expenditure costs, and are additional to the expenditure (they appear in the balance sheet, not the Profit and Loss account above) and are not included for FFP calculations. | |
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| QPR Finances released on 10:38 - Feb 28 with 2967 views | terryb |
| QPR Finances released on 08:11 - Feb 28 by EastR |
The prior years losses after player sales were:
2020 - £16.3m
2021 £4.1m
2022 - £24.6m
Cumulative £45m |
Sorry if I've missed any reply to this.
Simon allows for 20% of the loss to be allowable against FFP, so we would have no problem meeting the regulations at present.
It is the next set of accounts that we could struggle with! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:39 - Feb 28 with 2964 views | Northernr |
| QPR Finances released on 10:38 - Feb 28 by terryb |
Sorry if I've missed any reply to this.
Simon allows for 20% of the loss to be allowable against FFP, so we would have no problem meeting the regulations at present.
It is the next set of accounts that we could struggle with! |
Yes. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:47 - Feb 28 with 2893 views | HanwellHoopster |
| QPR Finances released on 09:24 - Feb 28 by Hunterhoop |
Dave, the big points deduction will come in 2025.
For the last 3 years (19/20, 20/21, 21/22), we have come in at 45m operating loss. 6m over the threshold, but there might be leeway for the pandemic.
This season (22/23) you’d hope expect our operating loss to be lower as we have fewer staff and have let go some big earners. Beale income vs Critchley’s payoff probably offsets. But I won’t be much lower. Let’s say 20m loss.
So that will move us to 49m, possibly with some pandemic allowance, maybe a fine/suspended points deduction.
But 23/24 (next season) is the problem. Without a big player sale, or lots of sales, we’ll lose another 20m+. The 4m loss year drops out of the rolling period, and suddenly we’re 24m loss, 20m loss, 20m loss. So 64m in 3 years all of which are post pandemic.
Then the hammer will fall. |
Don't forget that the new TV deal - understandably unpopular with the fans who go home and away - will bring in an extra £10m per year (or so) to the club. Although, having just looked that up I think it only comes into play from the 24/25 season, so perhaps not as helpful as I'd hoped, and would still leave our rolling loss above the £39m target.
The only option here is to significantly cut player wages - that figure has to come down much closer to £15m per year, ideally starting next year. Expect GA to be letting a lot of players go this summer, bringing in players from L1 on a free, and selling the likes of Chair / Willock / Dykes at 'bargain basement' prices to get their wages off the book and hopefully gain a few million here and there. Depressing, but given what the current crop are serving up for £27m a year, perhaps not that depressing... | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 10:53 - Feb 28 with 2833 views | themodfather |
its happening again, GROUNDHOG DAY! | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:00 - Feb 28 with 2792 views | Andybrat |
sh1t is going to hit the fan at some point unless a nugget appears within the squad. So I am an ex-banker ( apologies all), I didn’t realise how small the business actually is !! For that size of business you would not expect multiple layers of management in the normal world, understand that football clubs aren’t normal. How the hell do we double our turnover ? Which we need to do to maintain our cost base, or at least drastically improve it. Ground share ( as in someone else using LR) has been mentioned, great idea methinks as short term, QPR lottery ( seems appropriate), obviously sell someone, we need to do something. BBQ at £1,000 per ticket? Long term solution is a new ground that can be multi-used but I am 60 and doubt I will ever see that and ironically my heart doesn’t want. Seriously guys, no idea what the answer is which makes me a bit scared. Jim Gregory would be turning in his grave. I know I will be shot down but season ticket prices need to increase, despite the lack of entertainment. How much is the ground worth? Can it be sold to a fans consortium as a short term hole plug? Any other stupid ideas welcome…. Andy | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:00 - Feb 28 with 2792 views | Esox_Lucius |
| QPR Finances released on 09:36 - Feb 28 by MelakaRanger |
Players , Managers, Coaches increased from 113 to 136 in just 12 months. 23 extra! They cost on average £176,000 each per year.
So 23 extra at average of £176k = extra cost of £4million 1 Why do we need 23 more?
We seriously need to cut our cloth. And the whole of the Football League needs to re-evaluate the wages paid to players. There will be a number of our players on £10k or more per week. Who if anyone at QPR is worth paying half a million £s a year for?
Since Sky/Premiership came along 30 years ago the wages of players have lost all sence of reality - even more so in the Premiership.
But down here in the 'real world' the whole Football league needs to get real. How can any business pay out more than its income on wages along? Any normal business would go bust.
Rubens main business in Malaysia would never allow wages to get anywhere near income, like I say it would go bust. So why do Football clubs get treated differently? Why do (it appears) the majority of fans of clubs not 'get it'.
I think that FFP should be even more severe. On a rolling 3 years why shouldnt it be a zero loss?
And surely QPR cannot need even 113 players coaches and managers?
If we had say 80 in total (an arbitary figure) and the average annual wage was £120K (still a massive wage in the real world, our wages bill would only - yes only - be around 10 million. Nearly 15 million less that last years bill.
I love QPR. I've supported them since 1967. Football needs to take a reality check. Clubs are a business and if you keep making losses you should go bust |
With an academy taking players from 9 years old teams at U10, U12, U14, U16, U18 and B Team there is a lot of people required, including safeguarding etc. At a guess, once all the teams are based at Heston there may be opportunities to reduce a certain amount of staff with more crossover opportunities for the coaches etc.
With the prospect of a record number of Championship teams preparing to get points deductions for FFP breaches I am mildly hopeful that the EFL will look at realistic solutions to preventing this going forward. It would have to be conducted with the co-operation of the EPL as enforcing salary caps etc. would only drive all the best EFL players into the arms of the non salary capped Premier League or abroad in search of higher salaries.
As it stands the patient is dead but no-one has told them so they keep going. |  |
| The grass is always greener. |
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| QPR Finances released on 11:05 - Feb 28 with 2752 views | QPRConor2000 |
| QPR Finances released on 10:47 - Feb 28 by HanwellHoopster |
Don't forget that the new TV deal - understandably unpopular with the fans who go home and away - will bring in an extra £10m per year (or so) to the club. Although, having just looked that up I think it only comes into play from the 24/25 season, so perhaps not as helpful as I'd hoped, and would still leave our rolling loss above the £39m target.
The only option here is to significantly cut player wages - that figure has to come down much closer to £15m per year, ideally starting next year. Expect GA to be letting a lot of players go this summer, bringing in players from L1 on a free, and selling the likes of Chair / Willock / Dykes at 'bargain basement' prices to get their wages off the book and hopefully gain a few million here and there. Depressing, but given what the current crop are serving up for £27m a year, perhaps not that depressing... |
Club needs to put out a statement explaining these accounts further.
Could we find ways of cutting 2m a month on spending, I think its certainly possible.
1. The club should be seriously considering ether downgrading the academy or scrapping it entirely, the returns on our investment here seriously doesn't warrant us spending so much every season.
2. The club could find 2m a month by asking players to take pay cuts or we cut back the size of the squad.
3. Player sales.
These are the only real solutions I could think of, but we badly need a clearout in the summer. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:10 - Feb 28 with 2702 views | terryb |
This post is purely conjecture, but it might go a little way to explaining the change of direction in employing our manager.
It is a given that we need to increase income (as well as lowering costs), but that could only be minimal outside of player sales. Who are the players that would improve our revenue substanially though? IF we managed to receive fees for our four "most rated", how much would be the combined figures for Dieng, Field, Chair & Willock fetch? £5 million? And they would need replacing!
I believe we have quite a few players out of contract this summer, but again, some of those will need to be resigned. Are we in for a return to the summer of 2001 when we had to sign a new team at a fraction of the cost? Could it be that Gareth has been appointed because he would know players that are in that bracket?
Also, how many do we need to employ on the footballing side? 137 seems too many to me, but I have no idea what the optimum number should be, or whether Ferdinand & Hoos are included in this figure.
However you look at it, these figures are bleak & the transfer window of January 2022 drove us over the edge. | | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:19 - Feb 28 with 2649 views | BAWHoops |
| QPR Finances released on 10:38 - Feb 28 by terryb |
Sorry if I've missed any reply to this.
Simon allows for 20% of the loss to be allowable against FFP, so we would have no problem meeting the regulations at present.
It is the next set of accounts that we could struggle with! |
Basically unless we raise £10m in sales this summer we are in a very tricky situation.
Ainsworth turning round Dieng/Dickie/Chair/Willock's form is massive not just for this season, but also the upcoming one's as we need to money from their sales |  |
| http://blogandwhitehoops.wordpress.com/ |
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| QPR Finances released on 11:38 - Feb 28 with 2519 views | BushRanger82 |
Just might as well have a Palladini era board of directors. |  | | |
| QPR Finances released on 11:38 - Feb 28 with 2517 views | Monkey_Roots |
I stated elsewhere that I am pretty clueless bout the finance part, so take this with however much salt it needs...
If the next set of accounts is where the problems will come in - assume that's this time next year, yes? — and it means potentially catastrophic consequences for us a football club, what are the options?
— Huge fire sale of anything without a limp in the summer?
— Pump stupid amounts of money in and go all out for promotion next year and hope to get it and therefore avoid EFL sanctions until we come back down again? (I know this is irresponsible and stupid, so almost certainly possible)
Would the punishment be immediate, or would it take time?
Can someone outline the options please? |  | | |
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