| What are the finances like at RAFC? 12:39 - Oct 27 with 17497 views | A_Newby |
Using what limited information is publicly available, you can get an appreciation of the black hole in the finances of the Dale.
Since last season we have lost around £650,000 premier league solidarity money and the income from the EFL trophy and EFL cup. Last season the club was losing money even with this funding.
For this season we have kept the full premier league RINGFENCED funding for the academy (£600,000?) and a full EFL league 2 payment (£550,000?). Next season if we do not get promoted these will drop by 50% so the club would lose at least another £500,000 of funding.
I think the chairman in the fans’ forum made a point something like if we didn’t have to pay players’ wages then we might be able to break even.
In other words, if around 2,500 paying fans turned up around 30 times per year and spent money in the bars and on refreshments and sat in the stadium for 2-3 hours watching a well-maintained empty football pitch or maybe an amateur team playing then the club could possibly break even.
The reason why is simple, the costs now of maintaining the ground and hosting football at the stadium for 2,500 fans is greater than the match day income generated from these fans.
For example, just looking at the energy costs as outlined at the last fans’ forum. If the same amount of energy is used this year as last, the bill under the new price deal will rise from around £60,000 to over £200,000.
£200,000 per year with an average attendance of 2,500 gives an energy price of £80 per fan per season. So, if a season card holder pays £100 for their ticket, £20 would go in VAT and the remainder towards the energy bill. Before there are any funds from matchday income to pay towards a a football squad there are also other costs to pay such as business rates, the ground and pitch maintenance and match day security.
There are really only three ways to increase the matchday income, raise entrance prices, get fans to spend more in the ground and increase the number of supporters.
I am hoping that the club can at least renegotiate its energy prices.
I still think that season card prices are too low and have been ever since the Russ Green “experiment”. Next season whatever the outcome I would raise them by £30 across the board for all over 16-year-olds.
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:49 - Oct 31 with 2606 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:40 - Oct 31 by James1980 |
No harm in asking the question at the meeting this week. |
Putting that kind of question to the BoD would almost certainly cause a closing of ranks which would not be conducive to progressing the Trust agenda in terms of greater transparency and engagement
No-one's holding their breath on that either... but we all know there's a vacuum of leadership, which doesn't come down to one individual or cabal except in respect of the entire BoD accepting the situation |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:56 - Oct 31 with 2581 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:49 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
Putting that kind of question to the BoD would almost certainly cause a closing of ranks which would not be conducive to progressing the Trust agenda in terms of greater transparency and engagement
No-one's holding their breath on that either... but we all know there's a vacuum of leadership, which doesn't come down to one individual or cabal except in respect of the entire BoD accepting the situation |
I'll withdraw that question then if the general consensus is that it will cause more harm than good. I don't actually see why it would be a difficult question for the Chairman to answer though. We are a fan owned club apparently so shouldn't be tip toeing around anybody when it comes to important questions. I think not actually challenging those in the Boardroom robustly enough over the years has contributed to the current predicament we now find ourself in. I imagine the questions have already been submitted anyway and the answers compiled in preparation for the meeting. Hopefully not but that's what has happened in the past. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 13:59]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:03 - Oct 31 with 2553 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:56 - Oct 31 by TalkingSutty |
I'll withdraw that question then if the general consensus is that it will cause more harm than good. I don't actually see why it would be a difficult question for the Chairman to answer though. We are a fan owned club apparently so shouldn't be tip toeing around anybody when it comes to important questions. I think not actually challenging those in the Boardroom robustly enough over the years has contributed to the current predicament we now find ourself in. I imagine the questions have already been submitted anyway and the answers compiled in preparation for the meeting. Hopefully not but that's what has happened in the past. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 13:59]
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Fully agree there shouldn't be "tip-toeing" but there's an agenda to be pushed at this meeting which could be vital to the future of both the club and the Trust. Pushing that out of the way with such a searching issue mightn't be the best time to pose the question - though it's one we've all got in mind
Edit: re submitted questions - that's a question that might be asked of the Trust and agree it'd be totally out of order [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:04]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:20 - Oct 31 with 2517 views | James1980 |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 13:49 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
Putting that kind of question to the BoD would almost certainly cause a closing of ranks which would not be conducive to progressing the Trust agenda in terms of greater transparency and engagement
No-one's holding their breath on that either... but we all know there's a vacuum of leadership, which doesn't come down to one individual or cabal except in respect of the entire BoD accepting the situation |
Sorry I meant asking the question about the idea of giving away seats in Wilbutts for free. |  |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:39 - Oct 31 with 2477 views | TalkingSutty |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:03 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
Fully agree there shouldn't be "tip-toeing" but there's an agenda to be pushed at this meeting which could be vital to the future of both the club and the Trust. Pushing that out of the way with such a searching issue mightn't be the best time to pose the question - though it's one we've all got in mind
Edit: re submitted questions - that's a question that might be asked of the Trust and agree it'd be totally out of order [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:04]
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I understand that. I would be surprised if the Trust haven't given the Chairman and Directors a copy of the questions in advance, it's been done before over the years. I've been to many Q&A sessions in a past life but never one were the questions were provided in advance so a collective answer can be discussed and agreed on prior to the meeting. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 14:41]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:43 - Oct 31 with 2469 views | surb_dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 14:20 - Oct 31 by James1980 |
Sorry I meant asking the question about the idea of giving away seats in Wilbutts for free. |
Like the idea as the Willbutts will probably be only needed for Hartlepool out of the 10 fixtures we have after new year but wouldnt all other stands have to be free as well for POTD?
Its the best stand in the ground so not sure if you are allowed to designate one stand as free but charge for others especially if they're inferior.
We could probably get round it by giving away a number of tickets similar to to the Fylde game scheme where were giving away 500 tickets for a quid plus another 500 bought by the trust. We could give away say 3000 free tickets per game for the Willbutts. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 16:40 - Oct 31 with 2339 views | EllDale |
I could really complicate things by saying that, if the Willbutts is going to open as proposed, then I wouldn’t mind paying an upgrade on my Sandy Lane season ticket at least once just to see what it’s like! | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:45 - Oct 31 with 2255 views | 442Dale |
I think it was this thread, but again to clarify the ‘questions sent in advance’. This is not like a forum when those present should rightly be answering anything asked, but a request was made for written responses to some questions that would then be further followed up on on the evening. This allows for definitive responses rather than “the club said they will look into this”, maximises time as the Trust could prepare follow up questions to responses and actually contains the exact words of the club (and any follow ups reported as such) and not the interpretation of the person writing the report.
It only serves to provide more detailed information. Read the previous newsletters, meeting reports to see examples of where the current method can be improved.
I’m not aware of previous examples of this happening for the Trust meetings with the board, but if there’s an example of it, happy to be wrong. It actually allows for more detailed responses directly from the club. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 17:48]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:56 - Oct 31 with 2222 views | D_Alien |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:45 - Oct 31 by 442Dale |
I think it was this thread, but again to clarify the ‘questions sent in advance’. This is not like a forum when those present should rightly be answering anything asked, but a request was made for written responses to some questions that would then be further followed up on on the evening. This allows for definitive responses rather than “the club said they will look into this”, maximises time as the Trust could prepare follow up questions to responses and actually contains the exact words of the club (and any follow ups reported as such) and not the interpretation of the person writing the report.
It only serves to provide more detailed information. Read the previous newsletters, meeting reports to see examples of where the current method can be improved.
I’m not aware of previous examples of this happening for the Trust meetings with the board, but if there’s an example of it, happy to be wrong. It actually allows for more detailed responses directly from the club. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 17:48]
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You're right about that, so despite my earlier use of the phrase "out of order" what i'd regard as such is a lack of willingness to answer follow-up questions spontaneously
To simply have single responses to submitted questions would be very much against the "tone and spirit" in which the BoD should be liaising with the Trust, which is just as vital as any other aspect of club business | |
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:59 - Oct 31 with 2212 views | 442Dale |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:56 - Oct 31 by D_Alien |
You're right about that, so despite my earlier use of the phrase "out of order" what i'd regard as such is a lack of willingness to answer follow-up questions spontaneously
To simply have single responses to submitted questions would be very much against the "tone and spirit" in which the BoD should be liaising with the Trust, which is just as vital as any other aspect of club business |
And when this was raised at the fans meeting, it was asked that the Trust did indeed follow up on answers. Especially if they were limited in detail. If there’s little in the way of response to follow-ups, it needs to be reported as such. It’s a drum that’s been banged for a long time and was at the fans meetings six months ago. It was also a failing at other clubs…
You see a lot in how people choose to answer, sometimes it tells as much of a story as the answer itself.
We’ve seen enough of it recently. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 18:01]
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| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 18:21 - Oct 31 with 2175 views | Sandyman |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 17:59 - Oct 31 by 442Dale |
And when this was raised at the fans meeting, it was asked that the Trust did indeed follow up on answers. Especially if they were limited in detail. If there’s little in the way of response to follow-ups, it needs to be reported as such. It’s a drum that’s been banged for a long time and was at the fans meetings six months ago. It was also a failing at other clubs…
You see a lot in how people choose to answer, sometimes it tells as much of a story as the answer itself.
We’ve seen enough of it recently. [Post edited 31 Oct 2023 18:01]
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Remember how one former director wanted us to be more like Reading?
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/67272618
He did try his best, sorry, "worked incredibly hard" to get us into that state. |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 19:46 - Oct 31 with 2029 views | 49thseason |
The whole house of cards is starting to collapse.....The useless EFL will continue pouring money into the Championship whilst L1 and L2 get crumbs off the table. Dozens of clubs in the pyramid are being bled dry by scandalous wages, inept management and an overarching organisation which is as effective as a chocolate fireguard.
Not that there is anything unusual about the dire state of football finances when you take these numbers into account.....
"New figures from the UK Insolvency Service show company insolvencies have reached their highest level since 2009, when the global economy was in meltdown. Insolvencies in Q3 this year were 10% higher than last year – 37,722 companies were in “critical financial distress” and 480,000 were in “significant” distress. Meanwhile Hunt’s dangling spectral tax cuts ahead of the Autumn Statement and refusing to extend full expensing for companies…
Construction and real estate sectors have taken the strongest hit, with services and wholesale & retail trade behind. The number of creditors’ voluntary liquidations has reached levels not seen since the 1960s when data was first collected. Death by a thousand bankruptcies"… ( Guido Fawkes today.) |  | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 08:20 - Nov 4 with 1139 views | EllDale |
The American owners at Wrexham reckon its cost them £10m……so far…. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:20 - Nov 4 with 1020 views | 49thseason |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 08:20 - Nov 4 by EllDale |
The American owners at Wrexham reckon its cost them £10m……so far…. |
It might depend on if they were in debt and the state of the ground etc. They had been in the NL quite a long time and debts may have been racked up , I bet the ground needed some work too or maybe they paid off a mortgage on the ground?
Its a lot of money just for players. | | | |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:39 - Nov 4 with 1003 views | Dalenet |
| What are the finances like at RAFC? on 10:20 - Nov 4 by 49thseason |
It might depend on if they were in debt and the state of the ground etc. They had been in the NL quite a long time and debts may have been racked up , I bet the ground needed some work too or maybe they paid off a mortgage on the ground?
Its a lot of money just for players. |
And air travel between matches, and holidays for the squad in the USA. It all mounts up. If they are just paying out so be it - but if they at some point structure it as debts to be repaid when they eventually sell on, thats a different matter. Of course if I was a Wrexham fan that spent almost 20 years just about surviving in the National League then I would be delighted. | | | |
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