| Brexit .... My thoughts... 11:07 - Jun 16 with 148427 views | JacksDad |
The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose. |  | | |  |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:05 - Jun 21 with 2165 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:45 - Jun 21 by DannytheR |
But TTIP or something like it will come in anyway. When Johnson and Gove were still bothering to present an economic case for Brexit, increasing our economic ties to America ("opening ourselves up") was a huge part of it. As recently as the year before last, Johnson was calling TTIP "Churchillian" and saying anyone who didn't want it was talking "left wing mumbo jumbo."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/11173369/This-trade-deal-with-America-w
As for Farage, his main contribution on the subject of the labour market has been to say he wants to get rid of anti-discrimination employment law. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 11:47]
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I'm well aware of what Boris stands for in this world and that his sudden 'opposing' of Remain is merely the Bullingdon Boys efforts to make sure that they can run both camps.
I'm not voting out so that Boris et al can run amok, if out did win (which I appreciate it won't) the political landscape would mean a general election would have to be called sooner rather than later, way before Boris had time to put support a TTIP like initiative. And I say TTIP 'like' because at the moment it currently exists purely as a (secret until recent exposure) negotiation/plan between unelected EU bureaucrats and the US etc. One that is clearly dominated by the Big Business interests I mentioned in my earlier posts who are the real influence behind the EU. So any agreement we were to enter into in a similar vein would have to be negotiated/discussed and most importantly ratified by our parliament. A parliament, I might add, that we would have elected on the back of a heightened sense of awareness and of what the EU may have been trying to force upon us.
If under such circumstances the British people still allow their representatives to vote it in, so be it, but at least we have a good chance of stopping it and not being outvoted and having it forced upon us EU style.
I might just add that having had an interest in the direction and aims of the EU for 20 years that TTIP is not remotely the end of the more distasteful, sovereignty-diminishing plans that will be coming our way.
Just as a reminder of what this is all really about here is a quote from Jean Monnet, considered a founding father and architect of the EU -
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."
Something to think about. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 12:07]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:31 - Jun 21 with 2120 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:03 - Jun 21 by cyprusmel |
This is not a remain or leave decision, I am asking a question.
Last year Government figures stated that 333,000 immigrants came to the U.K. (Government figures) if this figure continues and it is likely to be higher with the advent of more poorer countries joining, where will they all work and live on arriving here.
Add to this the growing number of Illegal immigrants arriving.
In 2001 a Home Office report estimated the population of illegal immigrants in the U.K. at 430,000 excluding their U.K. born children.
In 2007 the London School of Economics produced an estimate of 670,000.
In 2010 Migration watch put the figure at 1.1 million. It seems highly likely that in the following 6 years this number has continued to increase.
So add the illegals to the legals and I ask again where will all these people find work, doctors, schools etc ? [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 11:16]
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Doctors and schools need funding anyway, it's easy to blame immigrants but the problem is as much cuts made due to economic situation as it is immigration. If they're coming here to work I don't see the problem. People are keen to point out that immigration suppress wages but don't want to admit that being outside the single market and having wage increases will prompt companies to leave the UK and take their jobs with them.
I still haven't got an answer to how will we manage immigration if we leave.
All I seem to hear is "Australian style points based system" with no explanation of how that would be applied to our situations, so I'm a bit confused at how it's going to work.
How reactive will a government be to the needs and demands in private sector employment? Say we're short on drainage engineers, not many of those employed in the public sector so private companies will be the ones with the demand, if they advertise and get little or no response or no experienced applicants what mechanism will be in place to alert the government to the skills shortage and allow them to amend the immigration criteria to allow for the jobs to be filled? Or will it be down to the private sector to decide and offer the job to a foreign applicant who would then be waved in?
The first way sounds like a very costly exercise with many government man hours required and the second option would be handing over the immigration policy to the private sector as soon as we've got control back anyway. Or is there a third option I'm not seeing? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:42 - Jun 21 with 2107 views | martincook |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:59 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR |
Excuse my ignorance, martin, but I thought we had minimum wage policies to prevent this and the EU were one of the reasons this was introduced?
Or are you referring to self-employed workers? |
The point is that minimum wage regulation doesn't prevent people from being paid too little, in fact it legitimises wages that are insufficient. It is so clear that the minimum wage is inadequate that we now talk about a "Living Wage". This is higher, but it still isn't enough. If the EU was responsible for this, I think that would debase your argument. Actually, wasn't it one of Tony Blair's administrations that started it off? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:54 - Jun 21 with 2098 views | martincook |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:05 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell |
I'm well aware of what Boris stands for in this world and that his sudden 'opposing' of Remain is merely the Bullingdon Boys efforts to make sure that they can run both camps.
I'm not voting out so that Boris et al can run amok, if out did win (which I appreciate it won't) the political landscape would mean a general election would have to be called sooner rather than later, way before Boris had time to put support a TTIP like initiative. And I say TTIP 'like' because at the moment it currently exists purely as a (secret until recent exposure) negotiation/plan between unelected EU bureaucrats and the US etc. One that is clearly dominated by the Big Business interests I mentioned in my earlier posts who are the real influence behind the EU. So any agreement we were to enter into in a similar vein would have to be negotiated/discussed and most importantly ratified by our parliament. A parliament, I might add, that we would have elected on the back of a heightened sense of awareness and of what the EU may have been trying to force upon us.
If under such circumstances the British people still allow their representatives to vote it in, so be it, but at least we have a good chance of stopping it and not being outvoted and having it forced upon us EU style.
I might just add that having had an interest in the direction and aims of the EU for 20 years that TTIP is not remotely the end of the more distasteful, sovereignty-diminishing plans that will be coming our way.
Just as a reminder of what this is all really about here is a quote from Jean Monnet, considered a founding father and architect of the EU -
"Europe's nations should be guided towards the superstate without their people knowing what is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps, each disguised as having an economic purpose, but which will eventually and irreversibly lead to federation."
Something to think about. [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 12:07]
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"If under such circumstances the British people still allow their representatives to vote it in, so be it, but at least we have a good chance of stopping it and not being outvoted and having it forced on us EU style."
Exactly. And your quote from Jean Monnet nails it. Monnet lived to the age of ninety and in all those years, he was never once elected to public office. That is the foundation the EU is built on. Now I'll polarise opinion still further by quoting Tony Benn. What he had to say needs to be born in mind whether you liked his ideas or not.
"What power have you got? Where did you get it from? In whose interests do you use it? To whom are you accountable? How do we get rid of you? Anyone who cannot answer the last of these questions does not live in a democratic system." | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:04 - Jun 21 with 2071 views | R_from_afar |
Thanks for posting, that is tremendous and has some new angles.
In other news, remember that 40% of our export go to the EU. That is a lot to put at risk. I am fearing for my job if we leave.
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:10 - Jun 21 with 2065 views | R_from_afar |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 08:56 - Jun 21 by Lblock |
I remain a steadfast LEAVE voter
The EU was supposed to be about "free" trade between nine countries at the outset
It's now a trough and has evolved into some faceless law making dictat with far more problems than solutions
Get OUT whilst we can or be brought down like Greece or accept being a federal satellite nation for Germany's Europe |
"Some faceless law making dictat" which has:
- Made mobile roaming cheaper
- Protected workers' rights
- Made our beaches cleaner
- Propped up our farms (who get £27k each on average from the EU; how may will survive when that is taken away?)
- Made our air cleaner
- Made our cars safer
- Taken the lead on climate change
- Given us more holidays and fewer working hours
- Given us access to the world's largest market.
Those ratbags, how dare they!
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:28 - Jun 21 with 2045 views | R_from_afar |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:59 - Jun 21 by Mytch_QPR |
Excuse my ignorance, martin, but I thought we had minimum wage policies to prevent this and the EU were one of the reasons this was introduced?
Or are you referring to self-employed workers? |
In some industries, there is a serious shortage of workers and immigrant workers have been used to fill that void, rather than to steal the jobs of UK people. My wife works for the NHS and they struggle to fill posts.
Don't take my word for it, though - I know you won't LOL - here's what the guy who runs the NHS says: "Defence minister Penny Mordaunt said that Britain’s £10bn net contribution to the EU could be spent on other areas, arguing that the NHS and social care would be at, or close to, the top of the list.
She also claimed that the EU would not be able to stop the accession of countries such as Turkey, which Vote Leave claims will simply mount further pressure on public services.
The chief executive of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens, rejected the argument, choosing to cite the case of the local hospital in Portsmouth, where Mordaunt is a Conservative MP, saying he was looking up the figures during her interview.
“At her local hospital, 80 of the doctors are from the rest of the European Union, 350 nurses in her local hospital from the EU. If only a proportion of those chose to up sticks and off on the 23 June that would create real problems in hospitals across the country.”
He said the NHS had benefited “enormously” from 130,000 European Union doctors, nurses and care-workers.
Asked about the £10bn cited by leave campaigners, Stevens said the UK’s statistics authority had claimed it was more sensible to use a lower figure, and said it did not represent a large amount of extra funding for the NHS.
He then added: “That is enough to fund the NHS for 19 days a year. The other 11.5 months a year, it is the performance of the economy that is what will count.”
RFA | |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:33 - Jun 21 with 2024 views | PinnerPaul |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:28 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
In some industries, there is a serious shortage of workers and immigrant workers have been used to fill that void, rather than to steal the jobs of UK people. My wife works for the NHS and they struggle to fill posts.
Don't take my word for it, though - I know you won't LOL - here's what the guy who runs the NHS says: "Defence minister Penny Mordaunt said that Britain’s £10bn net contribution to the EU could be spent on other areas, arguing that the NHS and social care would be at, or close to, the top of the list.
She also claimed that the EU would not be able to stop the accession of countries such as Turkey, which Vote Leave claims will simply mount further pressure on public services.
The chief executive of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens, rejected the argument, choosing to cite the case of the local hospital in Portsmouth, where Mordaunt is a Conservative MP, saying he was looking up the figures during her interview.
“At her local hospital, 80 of the doctors are from the rest of the European Union, 350 nurses in her local hospital from the EU. If only a proportion of those chose to up sticks and off on the 23 June that would create real problems in hospitals across the country.”
He said the NHS had benefited “enormously” from 130,000 European Union doctors, nurses and care-workers.
Asked about the £10bn cited by leave campaigners, Stevens said the UK’s statistics authority had claimed it was more sensible to use a lower figure, and said it did not represent a large amount of extra funding for the NHS.
He then added: “That is enough to fund the NHS for 19 days a year. The other 11.5 months a year, it is the performance of the economy that is what will count.”
RFA |
What sort of nonsense is that?
My Brexit leaflet told me we would build a new hospital every week with the money we will save by leaving.
Funny how they never mentioned how we would staff all these hospitals!  | | | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:39 - Jun 21 with 2006 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:35 - Jun 21 by DannytheR |
The reason we're in a race to the bottom with wages isn't because of European bureaucrats or political correctness. It's because we've spent 40 years letting the unions be dismantled, so people have no way to protect themselves against their employer.
I'm just hoping no-one using that argument against Europe didn't spend the 80s voting Tory, because Sports Direct and all its kind couldn't have happened without you. |
Wages are low because low skilled EU workers are coming over and working for less than the minimum wage .
How ? Numerous ways .
Get paid 4 days on minimum wage and work a day for the boss unpaid . How do you police that if the employee is happy to go along with it .
Wage reductions for a place to stay often overcrowded and unregulated
Other spurious deductions for mobile phone rental, a minibus ride to work all work to reduce the wage paid .
If our kids came home and said they had been offered that deal , we would tell them to refuse . Then UK youngsters get accused of being workshy.
I can only speak about Sports Direct as I find . Young Taxiboy No3 had a job with them . Zero Hours .
He has a season ticket and was doing his A Levels , He gave them a list of fixtures and revision sessions and exams and they offered him more hours than he wanted every week . . It did help that he had a scooter and was independently mobile . They changed things around playoffs and Sky , it really worked well for him .
Sure they search you on your way out which can be a bit demeaning but some kids do put 6 Barca shirts on and try to go home . They had a day each week where staff could buy at a discount .
No good for someone with commitments , but for youngsters its flexible and it works and with the exception of management thats who they employ . |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:42 - Jun 21 with 2000 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:33 - Jun 21 by PinnerPaul |
What sort of nonsense is that?
My Brexit leaflet told me we would build a new hospital every week with the money we will save by leaving.
Funny how they never mentioned how we would staff all these hospitals! |
We would use the points system to recruit immigrants from all over the world who would fit straight into the vacancies we had .
That same system would highlight career paths for our youngsters where there were vacancies that needed filling . | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:49 - Jun 21 with 1980 views | 1BobbyHazell |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:33 - Jun 21 by PinnerPaul |
What sort of nonsense is that?
My Brexit leaflet told me we would build a new hospital every week with the money we will save by leaving.
Funny how they never mentioned how we would staff all these hospitals! |
I think you two are getting a bit carried away on this (frankly hyperbolic) idea that if we vote out we're going to kick out all the European doctors, nurses et etc!! Are we also planning to kick out all the African, Asian and Oceanic ones as well!?
Of course not, calm down. Leaving the EU doesn't suddenly mean everyone from an EU country has to leave and no more can ever come in. Non EU people already live and work here, it is all doable.
As for the finances of the NHS, that's a whole different issue. One dominated by the fact that the world's profitteeres are not content to see a social care provision with such a huge budget carry on operating without their taking a slice of the pie. Again, see TTIP for the legal cementing of such theft from our communities.
When I say our Communities I'm talking about all European people's. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:50 - Jun 21 with 1976 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:10 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
"Some faceless law making dictat" which has:
- Made mobile roaming cheaper
- Protected workers' rights
- Made our beaches cleaner
- Propped up our farms (who get £27k each on average from the EU; how may will survive when that is taken away?)
- Made our air cleaner
- Made our cars safer
- Taken the lead on climate change
- Given us more holidays and fewer working hours
- Given us access to the world's largest market.
Those ratbags, how dare they!
RFA |
Why cant we just copy and adopt the legislation we want ( We lobby our own MPs under threat of the sack in 5yrs to give us what we want ) and ditch the other crap .
If the farmers need EU money to survive then sorry but their business doesnt stack up , they are not profitable .
Oh................... and not pay the EU any money .
The market is going backwards , India and China are where the growth is . [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 13:54]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:56 - Jun 21 with 1948 views | TheBlob |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:50 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy |
Why cant we just copy and adopt the legislation we want ( We lobby our own MPs under threat of the sack in 5yrs to give us what we want ) and ditch the other crap .
If the farmers need EU money to survive then sorry but their business doesnt stack up , they are not profitable .
Oh................... and not pay the EU any money .
The market is going backwards , India and China are where the growth is . [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 13:54]
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The farmers around here have lived high on the hog on "subsidies"(it's probably the first English word they learn at their mothers' knees.
Understandably they're worried but there are reassurances...
http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/665989/Brexit-British-farmers-EU-red-tape-subsi |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:01 - Jun 21 with 1940 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:49 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell |
I think you two are getting a bit carried away on this (frankly hyperbolic) idea that if we vote out we're going to kick out all the European doctors, nurses et etc!! Are we also planning to kick out all the African, Asian and Oceanic ones as well!?
Of course not, calm down. Leaving the EU doesn't suddenly mean everyone from an EU country has to leave and no more can ever come in. Non EU people already live and work here, it is all doable.
As for the finances of the NHS, that's a whole different issue. One dominated by the fact that the world's profitteeres are not content to see a social care provision with such a huge budget carry on operating without their taking a slice of the pie. Again, see TTIP for the legal cementing of such theft from our communities.
When I say our Communities I'm talking about all European people's. |
Exactly .
No one with a job is going to get sent home , that would be madness .
They are already here, in the figures .
We could even offer an amnesty , so we get a better idea of the true numbers and who is here .
Then we go to the points system which will mean that instead of viewing migrants with cynicism , we can shake their hand and say " thanks for coming and helping out" | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:02 - Jun 21 with 1936 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:42 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy |
We would use the points system to recruit immigrants from all over the world who would fit straight into the vacancies we had .
That same system would highlight career paths for our youngsters where there were vacancies that needed filling . |
How will the point system work? How will it be reactive to the market forces if it's set by an arm of the government. If it's controlled by private sector companies then how do"we" control it any more than we do at the moment. Any danger of some answers before the vote? | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:09 - Jun 21 with 1913 views | essextaxiboy |
But they just kidding themselves , their business isnt viable .
They have to summon some entrepreneurial (sp) spirit and try something else , we could taper the subsidies away to allow them to adjust .
A shame if a farm has passed though many generations I understand that but its a business at the end of the day . | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:17 - Jun 21 with 1896 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:28 - Jun 21 by R_from_afar |
In some industries, there is a serious shortage of workers and immigrant workers have been used to fill that void, rather than to steal the jobs of UK people. My wife works for the NHS and they struggle to fill posts.
Don't take my word for it, though - I know you won't LOL - here's what the guy who runs the NHS says: "Defence minister Penny Mordaunt said that Britain’s £10bn net contribution to the EU could be spent on other areas, arguing that the NHS and social care would be at, or close to, the top of the list.
She also claimed that the EU would not be able to stop the accession of countries such as Turkey, which Vote Leave claims will simply mount further pressure on public services.
The chief executive of the NHS in England, Simon Stevens, rejected the argument, choosing to cite the case of the local hospital in Portsmouth, where Mordaunt is a Conservative MP, saying he was looking up the figures during her interview.
“At her local hospital, 80 of the doctors are from the rest of the European Union, 350 nurses in her local hospital from the EU. If only a proportion of those chose to up sticks and off on the 23 June that would create real problems in hospitals across the country.”
He said the NHS had benefited “enormously” from 130,000 European Union doctors, nurses and care-workers.
Asked about the £10bn cited by leave campaigners, Stevens said the UK’s statistics authority had claimed it was more sensible to use a lower figure, and said it did not represent a large amount of extra funding for the NHS.
He then added: “That is enough to fund the NHS for 19 days a year. The other 11.5 months a year, it is the performance of the economy that is what will count.”
RFA |
Simon Stevens who drove through and championed the PFI initiative disaster which the NHS is still struggling keep up payments to private companies ?
That Simon Stevens .
No one is saying that NHS migrant workers would be sent home .
Mr Stevens would like us to think that they will be .
Mrs Stevens boss is the Health Secretary
The Health Secretary would like us to remain . | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:20 - Jun 21 with 1886 views | TheBlob |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:09 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy |
But they just kidding themselves , their business isnt viable .
They have to summon some entrepreneurial (sp) spirit and try something else , we could taper the subsidies away to allow them to adjust .
A shame if a farm has passed though many generations I understand that but its a business at the end of the day . |
The emphasis up here is changing from sheep farming to a more arable tenure,the days of subsidies may be numbered anyway.Rewilding is the watchword.
The Eu and United Nations supports Agenda 2030 btw.
https://sustainabledevelopment.un.org/post2015/transformingourworld | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:25 - Jun 21 with 1881 views | baz_qpr |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:21 - Jun 20 by martincook |
I don't want to be on the same side as all sorts of people but in the circumstances, at least until Thursday evening, I have to be. You may know that the super-rich are going for leave but the extra super-rich corporations are in favour of staying and it's not too hard to see why.
An element of democratic subversion which has increased substantially, is the lobbying of governing institutions and individuals by pressure groups and corporations who would otherwise be hampered in achieving their objectives, which are not necessarily in the common interest. If the electorate won't vote for it, or the government doesn't like the sound of it, have a word in the ear of someone you know near the top. Enter and leave by the back door. Discuss matters privately. There's no need to worry about ethics or legality, it's simply an exchange of views behind closed doors. Be ruthless in pursuing your objective. You can afford to be charming, knowing that off the record you are free to cheat, blackmail and bribe as necessary. Stay clever: the dirtier the deal, the greater the power you may have in future over those you are lobbying today. If you are not close enough to power to have this type of access, take a longer route by lobbying officially and a bit more openly, perhaps through a specialist company with a respectable name and a lot of front, operated and staffed by those who have passed through the interconnecting revolving door from the EU's institutions of governance. The object of this influence is to increase profit and power, to ensure that the interests of those who have none are diminished to the benefit of your own. In the end, they must have none, while you gather all of it. Sometimes you have to pay out today for a higher return tomorrow. So be it.
If power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, it might also be said that small scale corruption damages whereas large scale corruption devastates. How much larger than the EU does the organisation have to be before the potential for devastating corruption arises? We do not live in an ideal world, so we try to discourage corruption by legislation and other means. The European Union's approach to this problem raises some questions.
As we might expect, there are regulations. Nothing can go wrong because everything is written down, translated into 24 languages and written down again. "Transparency" is everywhere, we have nothing to fear. That part of the Treaty of Lisbon (2009) which deals with lobbying is so obscured by the tyre prints of the neo-liberal gas guzzler you can hardly read the print. We are no longer to worry about lobbying. The words "lobbying" and "lobbyist" have been replaced with the terms "European interest representation" and "European interest representative". Their benevolent engagement is part of a new "participatory democracy" within the European Union but whereas this term implies some element of democratic enrichment, the Treaty of Lisbon legislates in quite the opposite direction. George Orwell, who experienced a form of participatory democracy during the Spanish Civil War and approved of it, also foresaw the deterioration of the world and the language he knew. It hadn't happened by 1984 but it is now well under way. Political lobbying is formally legitimised in the Lisbon treaty and the "rights" of those engaged in it are protected. Note that they are protected from us, it is not we who are protected from them. Lobbying is a billion-euro industry in Brussels. According to Corporate Europe Observatory, a watchdog campaigning for greater transparency, by 2014 there were at least 30,000 lobbyists (European interest representatives) in Brussels. They may sign a transparency register run by the European Parliament and Commission or they may not - it is not mandatory. The biggest operators agitate for the biggest industries with the most to gain or lose from European legislation - laws and regulations which might otherwise be drafted exclusively to improve the quality of our lives.
Lobbying is a big problem in the UK but here, we have a vote and if we organise ourselves properly, we can vote corrupt governments out. In the EU, the corrupting influence of lobbying is massive and none of us has a vote to do anything about it. On Thursday we can begin to say goodbye to Jean-Claude Juncker and his Brussels cesspit. And for those in the Super Rich Club in Britain, we should start sending this message: we know what you're up to and we're coming after you. |
Is it that democratic that governments get elected by 25% of the electorate then hold power for a fixed term whilst changing the boundaries to suit their own needs. is it democratic that the balance of power in most elections is decided by a few hundred thousand centerist people in a few areas in the country. The vast majority of us live and vote in constituencies so safe that they have not changed for generations, that in turn elect professional privately educated politicians that have no real concept of the outside world
The democratic deficit argument only holds water if
a) MPs are proportionally elected, to be truly representative
b) We pretend that globalization never happened and that capital can be shifted at the flick of a button, that Fordist principles still apply to manufacturing and growth in China and its consequences never happened
c) We believe that economies and local economies can survive without large regional employers, that in turn create further supply chains in the areas they operate but are in most cases foreign owned global conglomerates that could quite easily operate elsewhere and as such hold far more power than elected representatives |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:27 - Jun 21 with 1874 views | essextaxiboy |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:02 - Jun 21 by QPR_Jim |
How will the point system work? How will it be reactive to the market forces if it's set by an arm of the government. If it's controlled by private sector companies then how do"we" control it any more than we do at the moment. Any danger of some answers before the vote? |
OK , there is a points system in place for non EU migrants so that could act as a starting template .
I could look up the Aussie one but heres my go .
A central agency is set up , an offshoot of the W& P office .
Vacancies have to be advertised in the UK for a period of time then referred to the agency for scoring . (how many points) .
These empty posts would be open to the public view( If a UK youngster saw that we needed 200 brickies it might inspire him to take a course and apply )
Points granted for qualifications, experience in the role , fluency in the language , criminal record and any community work or special qualities .
Interview and references taken up , post offered with relocation support and a warm welcome ... m,aybe even a local ceremony ....IMO [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:27]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:33 - Jun 21 with 1853 views | PinnerPaul |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:49 - Jun 21 by 1BobbyHazell |
I think you two are getting a bit carried away on this (frankly hyperbolic) idea that if we vote out we're going to kick out all the European doctors, nurses et etc!! Are we also planning to kick out all the African, Asian and Oceanic ones as well!?
Of course not, calm down. Leaving the EU doesn't suddenly mean everyone from an EU country has to leave and no more can ever come in. Non EU people already live and work here, it is all doable.
As for the finances of the NHS, that's a whole different issue. One dominated by the fact that the world's profitteeres are not content to see a social care provision with such a huge budget carry on operating without their taking a slice of the pie. Again, see TTIP for the legal cementing of such theft from our communities.
When I say our Communities I'm talking about all European people's. |
Firstly is wasn't me who said we would build a new hospital every week and I totally agree about NHS funding being nothing to do with Brexit as claimed by their leaflets along with people standing behind Doris and Nige with "Save Our NHS"
That slogan along with the other nonsense 'Put the Great back in Great Britain" and
"We want Our Country Back" are one of many reasons while I'm a remainer. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:34 - Jun 21 with 2296 views | Maggsinho |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:27 - Jun 21 by essextaxiboy |
OK , there is a points system in place for non EU migrants so that could act as a starting template .
I could look up the Aussie one but heres my go .
A central agency is set up , an offshoot of the W& P office .
Vacancies have to be advertised in the UK for a period of time then referred to the agency for scoring . (how many points) .
These empty posts would be open to the public view( If a UK youngster saw that we needed 200 brickies it might inspire him to take a course and apply )
Points granted for qualifications, experience in the role , fluency in the language , criminal record and any community work or special qualities .
Interview and references taken up , post offered with relocation support and a warm welcome ... m,aybe even a local ceremony ....IMO [Post edited 21 Jun 2016 14:27]
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And how much would that cost? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:36 - Jun 21 with 2292 views | baz_qpr |
Ask yourself why all the Neo-Cons are so pro Brexit, its not to protect your wages, nor your health service. Its because they strongly believe in slim to no government virtually Free Market everywhere. The EU adds regulations and protections, strip them away, they are not going to replace them. The trade unions know that and that's why they are universally supporting Remain. What power will they have to stand up to the Chinese employers | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:42 - Jun 21 with 2273 views | robith |
I just want it all to be over with now to be honest. It's unleashed the most duplicitous political contest I've witnessed in my short life time, and the vitriol from both sides has become all a bit too much for me |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:12 - Jun 21 with 2245 views | martincook |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:25 - Jun 21 by baz_qpr |
Is it that democratic that governments get elected by 25% of the electorate then hold power for a fixed term whilst changing the boundaries to suit their own needs. is it democratic that the balance of power in most elections is decided by a few hundred thousand centerist people in a few areas in the country. The vast majority of us live and vote in constituencies so safe that they have not changed for generations, that in turn elect professional privately educated politicians that have no real concept of the outside world
The democratic deficit argument only holds water if
a) MPs are proportionally elected, to be truly representative
b) We pretend that globalization never happened and that capital can be shifted at the flick of a button, that Fordist principles still apply to manufacturing and growth in China and its consequences never happened
c) We believe that economies and local economies can survive without large regional employers, that in turn create further supply chains in the areas they operate but are in most cases foreign owned global conglomerates that could quite easily operate elsewhere and as such hold far more power than elected representatives |
I completely agree with a). But I think you're suggesting with b) and c) that democracy is some sort of currency - as though we could trade bits of it to achieve a better result in another area. I don't agree with you on that because I think we have to keep working to strengthen democracy, especially as it really is as fragile as you suggest. I'm not saying that will be easy. It's never been easy in the past - 1832 Reform Act, Suffragettes, defeat of the Nazis etc. We don't get it handed on a plate, we have to fight for it. It's just that I believe we're finished if we don't. | | | |
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