| Brexit .... My thoughts... 11:07 - Jun 16 with 148449 views | JacksDad |
The one thing I am certain of re this vote is that no-one knows for sure what the repercussions economically will be if we pull out. If you listen to the experts it will be better if we stay in, however its all unconvincing. My issue is that after 10 years of Austerity, the services in this country have been cut to the bone, that is services that are needed by us all - not just Immigrants/benefit spongers. We are not in a position to afford the enormous gamble if it all goes t1ts up. I am taking my lead from Ray Winston and gambling responsibly and staying in. If we ever get to situation when everything is adequately funded and horrible 0 hours contracts were abolished ... then maybe it might be worth the risk to pull out. But to do it now is a massive gamble which we just cannot afford to lose. |  | | |  |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:29 - Jun 23 with 2629 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:25 - Jun 23 by Dorse |
Today's LFW ad reads: 'Turkey is joining the EU. It shares a 219 mile border with Iraq. Vote Leave'. Nice use of random facts there.
Just make it stop. |
Sounds like the work of Nige. He's very paranoid. |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:32 - Jun 23 with 2624 views | Dorse |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:29 - Jun 23 by Mytch_QPR |
Sounds like the work of Nige. He's very paranoid. |
He knew you'd say that. |  |
| 'What do we want? We don't know! When do we want it? Now!' |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:38 - Jun 23 with 2543 views | derbyhoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 00:14 - Jun 23 by martincook |
Derby:
EU regulations, on which topic you believe the Remain case is the strongest.
Yes, there are too many regulations, everyone's agreed. We're not talking about damaging business. What is business if it's not about making a profit? The EU claims to support that. It's a question of how that profit is used. The Working Time Directive and associated employment rules you mention, do not provide any kind of genuine protection of workers' rights. These rights could be safeguarded by a Europe-wide minimum wage based on a living wage in the most prosperous country, but that would be seen as ridiculous. They could be safeguarded by the admission that Austerity has lead to massive unemployment and needs to be abandoned. Look at the shocking figures, for example, of youth unemployment in Spain, France, Greece and elsewhere, including our own country even after the data have been massaged to suit the Government. But in the anti-democratic, neo-liberal bastion of the European Union, this will never happen. Worker's rights are about having a job that pays enough to live on. In a civilised society, those who wish to work should be protected in this respect. In Britain they are not, as a result of 35 years of neo-liberal government. We nevertheless retain the right to reject neo-liberalism and austerity in our own country. In the EU, official talk of workers' rights is fraudulent. Free movement of labour is designed to offer business the lowest possible outlay, irrespective of the consequences to ordinary Europeans. As long as we are in the EU we will never be able to vote this nonsense out. We will continue to suffer the adverse consequences the EU agenda, which is to do with the megalomania of Federalism.
Democracy, on which it's best to be brief (especially as it's half past midnight where I am):
UK democracy is rubbish, as you rightly point out. We can organise ourselves to resolve this. Earlier today, essextaxiboy responded to my post about this (see above) by saying we'd been offered this option before, and he was happy to stick with the rules as they are. I didn't ask him how he'd like it if Jeremy Corbyn got in on 28% of the vote. We were not offered a PR option in that referendum. The Conservatives in the coalition of the time stitched up the LibDems like the incompetents they turned out to be, by offering a system of PR that is not proportionately representational, so people didn't vote for it. There are proper versions, such as those which work for Germany and Ireland, which we should get together across party lines (Tories excepted - they don't agree: they are in office on less than 25% of the available vote, so why rock the boat?) and agitate for, at all costs. Contrast this with the EU, where of the seven institutions of governance, only the parliament is directly elected, and even this is by nation: we can't vote against some neo-fascist from Hungary even if we want to. The parliament is, in fact, more or less a rubber stamp. None of the representatives in it can make policy, they can only vote for or against policy that is proposed by un-elected bodies. MEPs are very heavily swayed by the 30,000 corporate lobbyists that infest the European quarter of Brussels. What's democratic about that and how do you think we are going to change it?
On immigration, I agree more or less with everything you have to say and It's great to know you think "Leave are ahead on this issue".
On the economy, there's no doubt that life will be difficult at first and possibly for a long time if we leave. There is a complete minefield of legislation and negotiation to navigate, which we have wandered into as a result of our failure over many years to grasp the true nature of the "European Project". My belief is that the EU will, in any case, collapse in one way or another under the weight of the pretensions of it's protagonist elite. If we don't leave now, we shall have to face the consequences of that disorder. On balance, I think we should get the shit over with right away and start planning for a fair and democratic future, starting on Friday.
Now it's late and I'm feeling a bit poetic but I'm not sure I should post this. OK, anyone who has seen Stan Bowles or Dave Thomas or Roy Wegerle or Clive Wilson or numerous others, knows and appreciates poetry in motion when they see it. So I will.
Democracy is a rare and magical flower growing on the unique hot-house plant of our ability to reason. It cannot be cut for display or preservation, it must be kept alive on the plant. Each generation must do this for itself, as well as for those who follow. If we neglect any part of it, many will live and die before it blooms again. In the intervening winter there is no guarantee that the plant will survive at all. |
At this stage I tried to be informative as I saw the major issues. And I've always tried to be polite - even when I disagreed passionately with someone (stevec and essextaxiboy, you know who you are).
I'm living in France at the moment and all the ex pats around us, including myself, have thought about the issues and voted to Remain. One UK national we know was going to vote Out but the general consensus is that he wasn't bright enough to work out how to get an Overseas Postal Vote.
FYI - France is very interested in the outcome. The referendum was the main topic on the news and I listened to a 7 minute report on the radio that was focusing on immigration. The reporter was in Boston, Lincs where 13% of the population are migrants. They spoke to 3 people. A woman who moaned that children couldn't get into their first choice primary school; an employer who needs migrant labour because the Brits won't go picking crops in the field 8 hours a day for the living wage; and, finally, a migrant who acknowledged that the locals didn't want her or any other foreigners. Those 3 points just about summed up the arguments.
The issues have been done to death. If you're still struggling go choose who you trust the most - Cameron/Osborne/Sadiq or Johnson/Gove/IDS.
Whatever you do, use your vote. It's far too important not to. |  |
| "Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry and narrow-mindedness, and many of our people need it sorely on these accounts. Broad, wholesome, charitable views of men and things cannot be acquired by vegetating in one little corner of the Earth all one's lifetime." (Mark Twain)
Find me on twitter @derbyhoop and now on Bluesky |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:46 - Jun 23 with 2534 views | 1BobbyHazell |
"The issues have been done to death. If you're still struggling go choose who you trust the most - Cameron/Osborne/Sadiq or Johnson/Gove/IDS.
Whatever you do, use your vote. It's far too important not to."
I guess we get the democracy we deserve. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:21 - Jun 23 with 2499 views | R_from_afar |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:52 - Jun 23 by loftboy |
Just voted out, no wobble,straight in the booth and cross in the out box, still think remain might edge it. The big question tomorrow will be how does Cameron deal with a pissed off half a country. |
Politicians on opposite sides have united for a referendum which has cleft our country in two. Marvellous  
Seriously, whatever the result, this referendum has caused serious and lasting divisions - in families, even - from which we will take a long time to recover.
And Charlie isn't a Ranger any more....
RFA |  |
| "Things had started becoming increasingly desperate at Loftus Road but QPR have been handed a massive lifeline and the place has absolutely erupted. it's carnage. It's bedlam. It's 1-1." |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 12:42 - Jun 23 with 2472 views | martincook |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 11:38 - Jun 23 by derbyhoop |
At this stage I tried to be informative as I saw the major issues. And I've always tried to be polite - even when I disagreed passionately with someone (stevec and essextaxiboy, you know who you are).
I'm living in France at the moment and all the ex pats around us, including myself, have thought about the issues and voted to Remain. One UK national we know was going to vote Out but the general consensus is that he wasn't bright enough to work out how to get an Overseas Postal Vote.
FYI - France is very interested in the outcome. The referendum was the main topic on the news and I listened to a 7 minute report on the radio that was focusing on immigration. The reporter was in Boston, Lincs where 13% of the population are migrants. They spoke to 3 people. A woman who moaned that children couldn't get into their first choice primary school; an employer who needs migrant labour because the Brits won't go picking crops in the field 8 hours a day for the living wage; and, finally, a migrant who acknowledged that the locals didn't want her or any other foreigners. Those 3 points just about summed up the arguments.
The issues have been done to death. If you're still struggling go choose who you trust the most - Cameron/Osborne/Sadiq or Johnson/Gove/IDS.
Whatever you do, use your vote. It's far too important not to. |
I live in France too, as it happens. I wouldn't say I avoid ex-pats like the plague but, based on personal experience, there is a limit to the number I'm interested in talking to. And with good reason, if your friends' assessment of their fellows is as you report it. "One UK national we know was going to vote Out but the general consensus is that he wasn't bright enough to work out how to get an Overseas Postal Vote." In my post at the top of this page, I made a point about humour being one of this MB's strengths. Your comment isn't funny and it's not polite. It's arrogant and patronising, a bi-product of the self-interest which has dominated the referendum campaign. I think you diminish your case and your own standing by recounting that anecdote, but there, it's done and you can't un-write it. Nevertheless, there will be no hard feelings from me after today. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:06 - Jun 23 with 2437 views | TacticalR |
I haven't posted on any Brexit thread except for this one, mainly because the points I wanted to make were of a general nature that didn't seem to fit in with the Brexit debate. My main problem with the Brexit debate is that it has never clarified working class interests (which is hardly surprising as the working class has no existence as a political force).
The European discussion within the Tory Party has always been ferocious because it is really a debate about how to manage Britain's decline (there is no point in mentioning the Labour Party because it is irrelevant).
The post-war Right always defined itself negatively. In America this took the form of anti-Communism, a useful doctrine to stifle dissent at home and justify America's role as international policeman. A significant part of Britain's identity was defined against Europe in general and Germany in particular ('two World Wars and one World Cup'). For most of the post-war period Germany played no political role, leaving international matters to France and Britain. The end of the Cold War spelt trouble for the status quo powers Britain and America, as both were in economic decline and were unlikely to benefit from any re-arrangement of world affairs. British policy for centuries had focused on preventing any single power dominating in Europe and preserving the British empire - both policies have come to grief as Britain has been stripped of Empire, and now an enlarged and increasingly confident Germany sits in the middle of Europe. Stay or leave, Britain will be in an ever growing position of weakness in relation to Germany.
The recession has thrown the whole European project into turmoil, with the periphery much worse affected than the central core of Germany and France. There is a strong argument that the European project consists of the worst of all possible worlds - a fiscal union without full political union and a common treasury and a common debt (i.e. a United States of Europe).
The Brexiters have been merciless in exposing the contradictions of the European project and the wishful thinking of the Remainers. Unfortunately they have substituted the wishful thinking of the European project with wishful thinking on an even grander scale. Capitalism is an international system and there cannot be any national solutions to its problems. UKIP and the Brexiters are barking up the wrong tree because Britain has been declining throughout the twentieth century and has no future as an independent capitalist power. This is particularly obvious in its foreign policy which consists of tagging along behind America's invasions and bombing missions (this has been its policy since humiliation by America at Suez in 1956 and is one reason why the Right wing critique of Blair's invasion of Iraq is so dishonest).
The question is, why are the biggest shysters in British politics (Johnson, Gove, Farage and IDS) leading the Brexit charge? As Brian McCarthy pointed a while ago, all the debates in politics are between different sections of the Right. In America and Britain we are seeing an emerging critique of Thatcherism/Reaganism, but coming from the Right. A section of the Right has realised that the old idea that the free market benefits all no longer holds water, as living standards fall or stagnate for the majority. Across Europe and in America there is therefore a growing nationalist 'blood and soil' movement (Trump promotes a blend of racial and economic nationalism). Scapegoats must be found for the failures of the market, whether it be immigrants or the European Union or both. This is supplemented by an obsession with muslims, as once again the West seeks to define itself negatively in relation to an enemy. The Brexit campaign is a coordinated symphony, with some banging the anti-immigration drum, while others go off into flights of fancy about Britain's future economic prospects, or try to pass themselves off as well-meaning democrats (this strategy has allowed one newly arrived poster on this board to promise everything to everybody) or even as defenders of the working class.
The weakness of Britain as an economic power has long been apparent (although some have drawn a degree of comfort from the turmoil in the weaker economies of Europe). Britain's manufacturing base is constantly shrinking and Britain has had a trade deficit every year since 1983. Osborne said his objective was to 'rebalance the economy' away from consumption, but his quantitative easing policies have only led to another housing bubble, based on speculation on existing assets. As Danny Dorling asks in 'All that is Solid, How the Great Housing Disaster Defines Our Times' (2014) - 'how can property values be rising when Britain is not getting richer as a country?' The British ruling class is devoid of positive ideas and is desperate to preserve the parasitic system for as long as possible - by doing all the same things (such as backing buy-to-let schemes) that led to the last recession. In Britain productivity has not recovered to its pre-2008 levels (mainly because there has been little investment - only a growth in low-paid jobs). Mike Ashley is the perfect symbol of the contemporary British capitalist - his business consists of importing foreign-produced commodities, and undercover reporters found that the highest tech implement in his warehouse was a ballpoint pen.
The working class has no interest in nationalism and cannot fight for its own interests unless it comprehends the underlying conflict with the capitalist class. This is not just 'a nice idea', but a rational policy that arises from the international development of the capitalist economy. In the nineteenth century nationalism played a positive role in some instances, particularly when it helped overcome regionalism. It has no role in today's world. The Brexit debate has not been illuminating because it counterposes a broken European capitalism to a broken British capitalism. |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:14 - Jun 23 with 2420 views | QPR_Jim |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 09:52 - Jun 23 by loftboy |
Just voted out, no wobble,straight in the booth and cross in the out box, still think remain might edge it. The big question tomorrow will be how does Cameron deal with a pissed off half a country. |
No wobble, glad to hear the weight loss is still going well. 
I'm just relieved the day is here and we'll have an answer one way or the other. |  | | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:20 - Jun 23 with 2402 views | daveB |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 10:25 - Jun 23 by Dorse |
Today's LFW ad reads: 'Turkey is joining the EU. It shares a 219 mile border with Iraq. Vote Leave'. Nice use of random facts there.
Just make it stop. |
It's ok, Farage is an MEP so if they ask to join thew Eu and meet the 35 requirements he can put in the UK Veto and stop them. Job done |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:02 - Jun 23 with 2321 views | cyprusmel |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 13:20 - Jun 23 by daveB |
It's ok, Farage is an MEP so if they ask to join thew Eu and meet the 35 requirements he can put in the UK Veto and stop them. Job done |
At least he will try. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:09 - Jun 23 with 2315 views | Boston |
My Mother has just voted leave. I have told her she can expect heavily discounted taxi rides. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:10 - Jun 23 with 2257 views | Mytch_QPR |
Tactical Rs post is very insightful (and his longest to date as far as I am aware).
I have certainly been concerned about the UK's diminishing power - what we do manufacture is generally on behalf of foreign owners. I keep getting told we are great at selling 'services' - which I take to generally mean finance.
It's a very interesting point about house prices and the smoke and mirrors game surrounding our perceived sense of wealth. The market is based on people borrowing ever increasing amounts at ever cheaper rates and over longer periods. It is a house of cards to a large extent - and that's speaking from someone in the industry.
I'm not saying that I have any answers to all of this - but this referendum has made people think in a much wider context than a normal election, mainly because it's binary and therefore polarises opinion. It's made us all ask some probing questions of ourselves (often without any definitive answers) and we've seen the politicians make some desperate claims in pursuit of their causes. It will be interesting to see if this process makes people feel more engaged at the next election or has the opposite effect.
By the way, who is the mysterious martincook and did he name his cheese???? [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 14:17]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:48 - Jun 23 with 2208 views | Brightonhoop |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:10 - Jun 23 by Mytch_QPR |
Tactical Rs post is very insightful (and his longest to date as far as I am aware).
I have certainly been concerned about the UK's diminishing power - what we do manufacture is generally on behalf of foreign owners. I keep getting told we are great at selling 'services' - which I take to generally mean finance.
It's a very interesting point about house prices and the smoke and mirrors game surrounding our perceived sense of wealth. The market is based on people borrowing ever increasing amounts at ever cheaper rates and over longer periods. It is a house of cards to a large extent - and that's speaking from someone in the industry.
I'm not saying that I have any answers to all of this - but this referendum has made people think in a much wider context than a normal election, mainly because it's binary and therefore polarises opinion. It's made us all ask some probing questions of ourselves (often without any definitive answers) and we've seen the politicians make some desperate claims in pursuit of their causes. It will be interesting to see if this process makes people feel more engaged at the next election or has the opposite effect.
By the way, who is the mysterious martincook and did he name his cheese???? [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 14:17]
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Is a France dweller apparently, so his choice should be interesting. I've changed my vote to Gouda. |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:48 - Jun 23 with 2208 views | kingsburyR |
1/6 odds to remain.
Its done already. Bookies are rarely wrong!!! |  |
| Dont know why we bother. .... but we do! |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:52 - Jun 23 with 2202 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:48 - Jun 23 by kingsburyR |
1/6 odds to remain.
Its done already. Bookies are rarely wrong!!! |
I've always thought it likely we will remain, but the question is how can they be so sure when the opinion polls have apparently been neck and neck for weeks?
Cue conspiracy theories. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:55 - Jun 23 with 2190 views | Jigsore |
Just voted, i'm remain. Large majority of young adults like me voting the same way, just another travesty to suffer should we leave
still think it's ridiculous this has been put to a referendum. it's far too important and complicated to be put to the public. |  |
| “The thing about football - the important thing about football - is that it is not just about football.†|
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:58 - Jun 23 with 2183 views | bob566 |
stocks, shares and currencies all starting to rise again. Looks like the stay campaign is a done deal. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:07 - Jun 23 with 2164 views | daveB |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:52 - Jun 23 by Mytch_QPR |
I've always thought it likely we will remain, but the question is how can they be so sure when the opinion polls have apparently been neck and neck for weeks?
Cue conspiracy theories. |
They have no idea and are just putting out generous odds for one side so that people are stupid enough to bet on it. Even if they lose a few quid on that bet most punters betting on this will quickly lose the money on something else [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 15:08]
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:10 - Jun 23 with 2151 views | Mytch_QPR |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:55 - Jun 23 by Jigsore |
Just voted, i'm remain. Large majority of young adults like me voting the same way, just another travesty to suffer should we leave
still think it's ridiculous this has been put to a referendum. it's far too important and complicated to be put to the public. |
Theoretically, it's fair to put it to the people (of course) but it's been made complicated by exaggerations, smokescreens and misinformation (the polite term for lies).
The body set up to administer this referendum should have published (and publicised) a breakdown of the facts about membership in an impartial format.
I think you have made the right choice - that comment is not made to start a row with anyone, btw. | |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:11 - Jun 23 with 2151 views | PinnerPaul |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:52 - Jun 23 by Mytch_QPR |
I've always thought it likely we will remain, but the question is how can they be so sure when the opinion polls have apparently been neck and neck for weeks?
Cue conspiracy theories. |
Some have been as short as 1/11, very slight drift to 1/8, 1/6, but I was surprised by the shortness of the odds.
However, bookies odds in the most part are based on profit/risk and not necessarily on what they think will happen. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:13 - Jun 23 with 2141 views | kensalriser |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:07 - Jun 23 by daveB |
They have no idea and are just putting out generous odds for one side so that people are stupid enough to bet on it. Even if they lose a few quid on that bet most punters betting on this will quickly lose the money on something else [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 15:08]
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I very much doubt that, Dave. The odds are following the money. |  |
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| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:13 - Jun 23 with 2516 views | PinnerPaul |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:07 - Jun 23 by daveB |
They have no idea and are just putting out generous odds for one side so that people are stupid enough to bet on it. Even if they lose a few quid on that bet most punters betting on this will quickly lose the money on something else [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 15:08]
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Not how they work in this day and age Dave.
If a market loses heavily odds compilers will be asked why & in any case most have computer models set up to change odds automatically based on weight of money.
Punters gamble - bookies rarely do. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 15:35 - Jun 23 with 2465 views | PinnerPaul |
Latest - About half a dozen have now closed their books on this market now. | | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:08 - Jun 23 with 2417 views | LongsufferingR |
Can somebody explain to me why we should leave or stay please? |  | | |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 16:09 - Jun 23 with 2416 views | martincook |
| Brexit .... My thoughts... on 14:10 - Jun 23 by Mytch_QPR |
Tactical Rs post is very insightful (and his longest to date as far as I am aware).
I have certainly been concerned about the UK's diminishing power - what we do manufacture is generally on behalf of foreign owners. I keep getting told we are great at selling 'services' - which I take to generally mean finance.
It's a very interesting point about house prices and the smoke and mirrors game surrounding our perceived sense of wealth. The market is based on people borrowing ever increasing amounts at ever cheaper rates and over longer periods. It is a house of cards to a large extent - and that's speaking from someone in the industry.
I'm not saying that I have any answers to all of this - but this referendum has made people think in a much wider context than a normal election, mainly because it's binary and therefore polarises opinion. It's made us all ask some probing questions of ourselves (often without any definitive answers) and we've seen the politicians make some desperate claims in pursuit of their causes. It will be interesting to see if this process makes people feel more engaged at the next election or has the opposite effect.
By the way, who is the mysterious martincook and did he name his cheese???? [Post edited 23 Jun 2016 14:17]
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Mysterious martincook is Martin Cook. Of course I named my cheese. It's stilton (sorry, Brighton - disappointing, I know!) By the way, I like Tactical R's latest post. I've done my best to take it all in. But where am I going wrong? What should I believe in? Which way should I have voted? | | | |
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