| It's all about the long term 10:31 - Feb 15 with 6486 views | ColDale |
I think Hilly has been very clear about his wishes for the club this season. I think play offs has been mentioned once if that, what he wants is for us as a club to establish ourselves as a League One club over a number of years, and he's cited the likes of Colchester and Walsall as clubs we should aspire to. He's also been explicit about the dangers of things happening too quick, with his talk of clubs going for things too quickly and then plummeting to the Conference.
Is there a Keith Hill infallibility? Course there isn't, he's not going to get every decision spot on, but history shows that 90% of the time he does and for me, we need to give him that trust to try things and allow him to make mistakes. What we know from him is that there is a purpose behind every decision and it will have been thought through. No matter what some believe, he's not picking names out of a hat when he puts his team together. I'd rather we have a manager that takes risks than one who goes for the safe option every time.
Can't remember whether it was Hilly or Flicker, but they used a phrase years about "the contract beyond the the contract". Part of the philosophy in player recruitment is that we might not be able to pay you the most but we'll make you a better player and then you will reap the rewards. That's what happened with Done, and is the ambition that exists within the dressing room, and it will help Summer recruitment as Hill brings players to the club.
We love the Hilly philosophy when it works out. We love the fact that we live within our means when things are going well. But there's definitely an element that we should just abandon all of that and go all in for a Play Off push. Assuming we don't make the Play Offs, it'll be classed that we blew it or it was in the palm of our hands and we just let it slip, in the same way on the back of two away defeats we are suddenly facing a relegation battle. We've been facing a relegation battle from the moment they read the Fleetwood score out whilst we danced on the pitch last season. It's just that we've been fighting it a little too well. I think people have got carried away by the league position, yet ignoring the fact that we were always two games away from the bottom half.
Every defeat seems to bring about a crisis these days, and players who have took us to to promotion and to the top five in League One are written off at a whim. There's probably been about three or four crises since Hill came back. We had the early days where he couldn't stop the rot, we had the crisis last Easter where we were blowing our chance of promotion, we had the crisis in August where this football team were incapable of scoring goals, and until we signed someone, relegation was an inevitability.
I read yesterday somewhere that the postponement against Orient was more damaging than the back to back defeats, and I think that was spot on. I know you can never claim points before the game has been played, but on the assumption that had we played, we'd have won, our league position would have still looked magnificent. 9th place with a game in hand on the team in the last play off position. Failure to play that game has got people discussing relegation.
Who knows where we will end up this season, but we'll have done so with the smallest wage bill and produced a substantial profit - a profit that we will allow to compete next season, and the season after because that's what it's all about: this side continuing to do what it does best, and punching well above its weight.
I think we have to ask ourselves what we want from our football club. For me, it's year on year progress, and we've got that. I want it done in such a way where given that we're never going to get the crowds we deserve that funds are generated and ploughed back in for the long term benefit. We've got that. I want the football club run in such a way that we give young players - especially local lads - the chance to play and progress and we've got that. And I don't want any of that being dismantled for short term gain.
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| It's all about the long term on 10:35 - Feb 15 with 4329 views | Daleaholic |
A very sensible post which puts it into perspective. |  |
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| It's all about the long term on 10:38 - Feb 15 with 4317 views | boffley |
Absolutely spot on. An excellent summing up of the position which is logical and reasoned. |  | | |
| It's all about the long term on 10:45 - Feb 15 with 4281 views | Toffeemanc |
As ever Col you are the voice of reason. Great post and 100 % agree that the long term is what we should be looking at. |  |
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| It's all about the long term on 10:48 - Feb 15 with 4274 views | D_Alien |
I'd call that a pretty sensational post Col.
Sensational in its clarity, sensational in its breadth.
In the days after the Walsall defeat, I asked if we all needed to take a deep breath and allow Hilly to take us where, in his judgement, he wants to take us.
That might mean experiments which make little sense to us; and it is difficult (impossible even) not to be critical when we lose games due to experiments not coming off. But surely he's built up such an enormous reserve of credit with us that - to be quite honest - even a relegation back to L2 couldn't override.
The only thing in my book that could ever put him on the wrong side of us is if he shows us disrespect.
Some fans may feel that forking out a wedge of cash to travel and watch us lose against decent L1 sides who're able to take advantage of weaknesses in our lineup isn't what they expect. But let's face it - how many of us expected to be in L1 again? Personally, having watched the Dale since the 1960's and following our relegation in 1974 - never. Then again, following our relegation in 2012 - never again.
So I'm prepared to take a deep breath and stick with the plan, because as Col so eloquently explains, there is a plan. And we're very lucky to be part of it.
[Post edited 15 Feb 2015 10:53]
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| It's all about the long term on 10:53 - Feb 15 with 4248 views | Delboy |
Thank goodness for a calm reasoned post after the hysterical rantings that seem to have become the feature of this board recently. Well done Col. | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 10:53 - Feb 15 with 4249 views | TalkingSutty |
Good post but fans are still entitled to discuss team selection or question managerial decisions without it being viewed as some sort of betrayal.
Hillys doing a fine job but isn't above criticism whether that be in relation to team selection or some of his media work but like you rightly pointed out he doesnt do much wrong.The same cant be said for other aspects of the club. |  | | |
| It's all about the long term on 11:17 - Feb 15 with 4192 views | fitzochris |
The debate here, as I see it, is like an onion (not the French kind, we've had enough of that).
I'll strip away the first layer, that is the sale of Matt Done. I accept that had to happen for all the reasons previously given on countless other threads. As far as I'm concerned, that debate is over.
The second is the two consecutive defeats. Again, this happens in football - and it's happened to us countless times in the past. Not an issue if the team is giving its all.
The third, however, is this square pegs in round holes approach that Hilly seems to be going for in the wake of selling Done. That's the one that concerns me. Perhaps it is all part of some grand plan that us lesser mortals are too feeble-minded to grasp but, right now, it looks like experimentation or, dare I say it, desperation.
If Brandy and RNL are ready-made replacements (and I accept that Brandy is injured) we certainly aren't seeing it. It's as if all the other positions on the field have suddenly been overhauled too. Too much too quickly?
Add to that the recent dodgy postponement, and various other commercial issues, and an air of positivity around the club has evaporated.
I'm not going to doubt Keith Hill, or that the chairman has the best interests of the club at heart, by the way. Just trying to make sense of one third of the current debate on this forum.
Better insert a disclaimer here, too, that both the defeats in question have been away games that I haven't attended. [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 11:19]
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| It's all about the long term on 11:54 - Feb 15 with 4112 views | Suggers |
If I had one comment to make about the approach KH has taken to this season, it is his constant playing down the league 1 status and ambition for the club this year. My fear is that the players are starting believe what their boss has been telling them all season.
Fair enough lets not get above our station, but perhaps no need to continually point out that we are out performing. |  | | |
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| It's all about the long term on 12:00 - Feb 15 with 4088 views | 442Dale |
There has to be a realisation that a lot of goodwill was lost with that postponement and it's raised the bar on reactions to defeats.
As a wise old sage posted on here, if there had been a "we made some mistakes but we've learnt lessons and we'll try and get it right in the future" message it would have made all the difference. |  |
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| It's all about the long term on 12:03 - Feb 15 with 4078 views | zxcvbnm |
| It's all about the long term on 11:54 - Feb 15 by Suggers |
If I had one comment to make about the approach KH has taken to this season, it is his constant playing down the league 1 status and ambition for the club this year. My fear is that the players are starting believe what their boss has been telling them all season.
Fair enough lets not get above our station, but perhaps no need to continually point out that we are out performing. |
Hill will be saying that in public but I imagine he ripped them apart after yesterdays game in private |  |
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| It's all about the long term on 12:53 - Feb 15 with 3972 views | mikehunt |
And I don' think the Done debate is over: we don't know how much we got for him. Letting him go, mid-season was nothing short of scandalous. The difference between a comfortable season and a nervous finish as another couple of games without a win will produce.
If we didn't get a million quid upfront for him plus add-ons then I will not renew my season ticket in protest. It's ok saying Matty wanted to go but he was our player. We could have kept him and sold him for a pittance at the end of the season. I'm sure that would not have harmed his career prospects. And (although he doesn't come across as that kind of guy) had he wanted to spit his dummy out and not play for us then so be it we would be in no worse position than we are now - albeit a few bob lighter in the bank.
Other than that, I have no problems with Hilly and our team, the selections etc etc. This is all normal Dale. But the Done rumours, if true, I can't take. |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| It's all about the long term on 13:08 - Feb 15 with 3937 views | BlueMessiah |
| It's all about the long term on 12:53 - Feb 15 by mikehunt |
And I don' think the Done debate is over: we don't know how much we got for him. Letting him go, mid-season was nothing short of scandalous. The difference between a comfortable season and a nervous finish as another couple of games without a win will produce.
If we didn't get a million quid upfront for him plus add-ons then I will not renew my season ticket in protest. It's ok saying Matty wanted to go but he was our player. We could have kept him and sold him for a pittance at the end of the season. I'm sure that would not have harmed his career prospects. And (although he doesn't come across as that kind of guy) had he wanted to spit his dummy out and not play for us then so be it we would be in no worse position than we are now - albeit a few bob lighter in the bank.
Other than that, I have no problems with Hilly and our team, the selections etc etc. This is all normal Dale. But the Done rumours, if true, I can't take. |
Just so that we're all clear. The up front fee for Done was £450k less "deductions" with add ons for goals scored by Done and Sheff U securing promotion, amongst others. The add ons are also subject to "deductions".
This is not speculation on my part. [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 13:09]
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| It's all about the long term on 13:30 - Feb 15 with 3873 views | pioneer |
| It's all about the long term on 13:08 - Feb 15 by BlueMessiah |
Just so that we're all clear. The up front fee for Done was £450k less "deductions" with add ons for goals scored by Done and Sheff U securing promotion, amongst others. The add ons are also subject to "deductions".
This is not speculation on my part. [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 13:09]
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fcuking marvellous... we have a strong financial interest in a rival getting promotion.
We now know where the boards loyalties lie for this season..under no circumstances do anything that risks Sheff Uniteds progress.
I will not be going to the Sheffield United home game next week..my own little protest at this conflict of interest. | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 13:37 - Feb 15 with 3847 views | 442Dale |
In the past it has been mentioned that fees are paid in two halves. So any "up front" amount is followed by another amount the year after.
And unless someone at a football club is disclosing "undisclosed fees" to people who don't work at football clubs, there is no reason any fan would be aware of it. | |
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| It's all about the long term on 14:14 - Feb 15 with 3763 views | RAFCBLUE |
It's all about the long term.
You can summarize being a Dale supporter of of a certain vintage with those words.
As I write this the long term plans to be a long term League 1 (Division 3) club we have to:
1) Secure Spotland.
For the first time in a generation we have the opportunity to secure our ground as our asset, develop it for the benefit of the club seven days a week, 365 days a year.
2) Secure League 1 status for 2015/16.
12 point required from 18 games to get the accepted "50 points" being:
* 4 wins. 14 defeats
* 3 wins, 3 draws, 12 defeats
* 2 wins, 6 draws 10 defeats
* 1 win, 9 draws, 8 defeats
* 12 draws, 6 defeats
In short, we will get there with this squad which was the aim at the start of the season.
3) A League 1 Commercial offering.
We have a "from 8 years old to the first team" plan for players. You can read it here:
http://www.rochdaleafcyouth.co.uk/files/Resources/EPPP_Story.pdf
I want to see the off field equivalent and be able to understand how it fits into the Rochdale community and for exiles and out of towners, like me.
4) E-ticketing and proper online store
Done to death. I think it was Col that said this needs to be ready to trialled for this pre-season. If not, get it sorted for 2017/18. it is not a league 1 standard.
Someone file this post for me and see in a year where we will be. If we are serious then 1,3 and 4 need sorting and the relevant people given a hard time. Fair enough to give Keith Hill a hard time for 2) but he is one of approximately 100 employees
People on here are saying the Joe Bunney isn't a left back; but he might be a wizard of a Head of Commercial! [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 14:16]
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| It's all about the long term on 16:26 - Feb 15 with 3568 views | SteTsGoldenBoot |
Great post Col.
In the bad old days. I feel that for many of us 'the dream' was to see Dale promoted and to play at Wembley. The first promotion was great, but the second was more of a 'that's nice. well done' than the thrill of the first, we had achieved our goals.
Getting to the Championship was never really a dream that any of us considered, as previously it has been so far out of reach. This is why I feel that many of us have taken the sale of Matty Done so hard. Throw in the embarrassing postponed game, the two defeats, square pegs in round holes team selection and it feels that from the high of being on TV in the 4th round of the FA Cup and dreaming of the play offs, that we have gone back to being little old Rochdale again, doing what we have always done.
Its great that we have so many good young players, but I just feel that the club has got a bit obsessed about showcasing them and putting them in the shop window, rather than getting back to selecting the best team we have available, in order to get the best result that we can. As previous posters have said, if this was to help secure Spotland and our future, we could put our new dreams on hold, but we hear nothing!
Very early on Flicker said that the club was run like a private gentlemens club. Although we have a lot to be thankful for, it does feel a little bit that way again. Does selling players make gate receipts (and in turn the paying customer) less significant and important?
Perhaps now is a good time to get the old 7 year plan out, see what was achieved, what we did ok at and what we are no nearer to achieving (training ground), then set out a new blue print for the club and maybe even share that vision with the fans? |  |
| Everything thats been, has past. The answers in the looking glass! |
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| It's all about the long term on 16:58 - Feb 15 with 3478 views | nordenblue |
| It's all about the long term on 13:08 - Feb 15 by BlueMessiah |
Just so that we're all clear. The up front fee for Done was £450k less "deductions" with add ons for goals scored by Done and Sheff U securing promotion, amongst others. The add ons are also subject to "deductions".
This is not speculation on my part. [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 13:09]
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That sounds about right, a fee that in no way reflects his talent and even more so the position the club "was" in | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 17:45 - Feb 15 with 3369 views | The_DJ |
| It's all about the long term on 13:08 - Feb 15 by BlueMessiah |
Just so that we're all clear. The up front fee for Done was £450k less "deductions" with add ons for goals scored by Done and Sheff U securing promotion, amongst others. The add ons are also subject to "deductions".
This is not speculation on my part. [Post edited 15 Feb 2015 13:09]
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Similar figure to the amount I heard.
No wonder its undisclosed.
February has been a truly awful month for supporters and that's why many are venting their feelings on here.
Its better on here than ranting on Match days, but that may change.
League 1 survival and a Cup run is all anybody could have hoped for but we don't want to be dragged into a battle at the wrong end of the table after doing so well up to Christmas.
If we are to become an established League 1 club by being a selling club, lets stop taking peanuts for the odd quality player we do sell.
FFS some Non League clubs have sold Million Pound players. Surely we a bigger than a Conference club ? |  | | |
| It's all about the long term on 17:59 - Feb 15 with 3329 views | 442Dale |
Will say it again, how has ANYONE on here heard? The fee is undisclosed. Presumably this is for a reason, nobody outside the club should have had this fee disclosed to them.
This is similar to why people had a go at upthedale89 when that O'Connell thing leaked. Why and how are some in the know?
Either the club tells everyone the fee or it stays in-house as part of the whole "undisclosed" nature of the deal. | |
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| It's all about the long term on 18:02 - Feb 15 with 3318 views | midlandsdale |
| It's all about the long term on 12:53 - Feb 15 by mikehunt |
And I don' think the Done debate is over: we don't know how much we got for him. Letting him go, mid-season was nothing short of scandalous. The difference between a comfortable season and a nervous finish as another couple of games without a win will produce.
If we didn't get a million quid upfront for him plus add-ons then I will not renew my season ticket in protest. It's ok saying Matty wanted to go but he was our player. We could have kept him and sold him for a pittance at the end of the season. I'm sure that would not have harmed his career prospects. And (although he doesn't come across as that kind of guy) had he wanted to spit his dummy out and not play for us then so be it we would be in no worse position than we are now - albeit a few bob lighter in the bank.
Other than that, I have no problems with Hilly and our team, the selections etc etc. This is all normal Dale. But the Done rumours, if true, I can't take. |
This is now behind us. Its happened. Whether you agree or not can we now look at the future rather than the past and get behind both a manager and board that has nothing but the best interests of all of us at heart. They have been smart, well judged in what they have done, and as Col points out so well, the longer term in view.
Matt going was his choice, one that every person in their respective fields sport or business would have taken.
No doubt Keith is trying new things with the resources he has at his disposal. Some will work and some won't. Let him be the judge of that, as from where I am sitting he has been outstanding so far. We can't win every game, and players will lose form and some take longer than others to adjust to new line ups and formations.
There is nothing wrong with opinion about the club we all passionately follow, but lets have some perspective, please. |  | | |
| It's all about the long term on 18:56 - Feb 15 with 3226 views | The_DJ |
| It's all about the long term on 17:59 - Feb 15 by 442Dale |
Will say it again, how has ANYONE on here heard? The fee is undisclosed. Presumably this is for a reason, nobody outside the club should have had this fee disclosed to them.
This is similar to why people had a go at upthedale89 when that O'Connell thing leaked. Why and how are some in the know?
Either the club tells everyone the fee or it stays in-house as part of the whole "undisclosed" nature of the deal. |
Lord Lucan told me. | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 19:28 - Feb 15 with 3152 views | cupardale |
Wish I could put it as eloquently as Col. | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 08:58 - Feb 16 with 2910 views | aleanddale |
Yep great post col well done.
What's needed right now is we all pull together get down to Spotland on Saturday and Tuesday and cheer the lads on to two back to back wins.
Difficult yes! But not impossible.
Hilly pulls rabbits and we have a wry smile and a smug grin. When he gets it a little bit wrong like back to back defeats ( both away and tricky places to go ) we need to remind ourselves just how well we are doing.
Hopeful Tanser back on Saturday and Eastham fit.
Bennett back would be a huge confidence booster too. | | | |
| It's all about the long term on 09:44 - Feb 16 with 2827 views | nordenblue |
| It's all about the long term on 18:02 - Feb 15 by midlandsdale |
This is now behind us. Its happened. Whether you agree or not can we now look at the future rather than the past and get behind both a manager and board that has nothing but the best interests of all of us at heart. They have been smart, well judged in what they have done, and as Col points out so well, the longer term in view.
Matt going was his choice, one that every person in their respective fields sport or business would have taken.
No doubt Keith is trying new things with the resources he has at his disposal. Some will work and some won't. Let him be the judge of that, as from where I am sitting he has been outstanding so far. We can't win every game, and players will lose form and some take longer than others to adjust to new line ups and formations.
There is nothing wrong with opinion about the club we all passionately follow, but lets have some perspective, please. |
Since when has a football club been run in the best interest of the fans, the chairmans a business man ultimately and makes his decisions based on just that,Hilly wont be too conscious of pleasing everyone else if theres a chance to satisfy his own needs primarily.
As usual we are given the mushroom treatment over most aspects of the club until its season ticket time then amazingly enough well suddenly be well informed of all matters money.This whole undisclosed transfer fee is just to help cloud the waters further to prevent obvious grief | | | |
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