| Watson..... 21:00 - Sep 5 with 13966 views | Sandyman |
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| "And only as far as Casey Pettit......" |
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| Watson..... on 19:02 - Sep 9 with 3941 views | D_Alien |
| Watson..... on 18:38 - Sep 9 by Cedar_Room |
I’d have got rid of him on Monday after the Gillingham debacle and started the search for someone with more experience.
I imagine the Board are going to give this at least another 5 games, given their resounding vote of confidence today.
Those games are against: Walsall (5th) Oldham (10th) Fleetwood (6th) Swindon (2nd) and Tranmere (4th).
We maybe eek out a draw against Oldham if it turns into one of those horrible niggly derby games, but I can see it more likely a humiliating drubbing, same as the other 4 fixtures.
That would undoubtedly see us in 24th place in the league and already a few points adrift.
The atmosphere in the stands is hardly likely to have improved meaning even more bad vibes and toxicity.
At that point we’re looking at needing at least 41 more points from the remaining 36 games (with the average over the last 10 years to avoid the drop being about 44 points) - thats having to win a third of all remaining games.
Even if we change managers at that stage - we’re now looking at someone not addressing a poor start but needing immediate turnaround and pretty great form just to avoid relegation, when the bond between fans and players will be badly damaged and the team will be demoralised and devoid of confidence after achieving just 1 win in 10.
None of this seems far fetched but going off the performances so far, pretty inevitable.
I think the writing is already on the wall and delaying the decision will only cost us. Would love to be proven wrong. |
If you don't allow someone the chance, you can never love to be proven wrong |  |
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| Watson..... on 19:14 - Sep 9 with 3871 views | Cedar_Room |
| Watson..... on 19:02 - Sep 9 by D_Alien |
If you don't allow someone the chance, you can never love to be proven wrong |
I’ll rephrase it then - I really hope I’m wrong but I don’t think I will be. |  | | |
| Watson..... on 19:15 - Sep 9 with 3860 views | NorthernDale |
| Watson..... on 18:05 - Sep 9 by 442Dale |
So what would you do? |
We must start considering replacing him, especially if we lose the next two. |  | | |
| Watson..... on 20:00 - Sep 9 with 3762 views | Nerazzurri |
Regardless of what happens with Watson we should go with whoever is identified as the best candidate, not this cliched “experience” just for the sake of it. The most experienced person right now is probably Ian Henderson, he’s seen the best of Hill, BBM, McNulty & would be best placed to identify what’s currently missing rather than appointing someone “experienced” journeyman that will take time to work things out, sign a load more players & send us down. |  |
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| Watson..... on 20:08 - Sep 9 with 3715 views | 442Dale |
| Watson..... on 20:00 - Sep 9 by Nerazzurri |
Regardless of what happens with Watson we should go with whoever is identified as the best candidate, not this cliched “experience” just for the sake of it. The most experienced person right now is probably Ian Henderson, he’s seen the best of Hill, BBM, McNulty & would be best placed to identify what’s currently missing rather than appointing someone “experienced” journeyman that will take time to work things out, sign a load more players & send us down. |
Keep coming back to the fact that pointing at “inexperienced” managers like Eyre and Stockdale as how things can turn out only ignores that Hill, McNulty and even Dave Sutton turned out ok in their first jobs. Could even add Bergara to that list.
It also shows a convenient avoidance to acknowledge how Bentley, Coleman, Buckley and Barrow were seen as the perfect “experienced” hands required at differing times.
A good choice will always be one who fits the club and can work with the players at their disposal. On paper, that looked like Watson. It’s the latter part of the equation he has to get right. Very soon. |  |
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| Watson..... on 20:36 - Sep 9 with 3616 views | James1980 |
| Watson..... on 20:08 - Sep 9 by 442Dale |
Keep coming back to the fact that pointing at “inexperienced” managers like Eyre and Stockdale as how things can turn out only ignores that Hill, McNulty and even Dave Sutton turned out ok in their first jobs. Could even add Bergara to that list.
It also shows a convenient avoidance to acknowledge how Bentley, Coleman, Buckley and Barrow were seen as the perfect “experienced” hands required at differing times.
A good choice will always be one who fits the club and can work with the players at their disposal. On paper, that looked like Watson. It’s the latter part of the equation he has to get right. Very soon. |
Every manager in every job has a degree of inexperience, when they first take on the role [Post edited 9 Sep 21:22]
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| Watson..... on 06:56 - Sep 10 with 3245 views | DaleiLama |
| Watson..... on 08:59 - Sep 9 by D_Alien |
Thanks for the feedback DL
That's pretty much how i'd imagine our recruitment process would've seen it, i.e. capable of achieving forward momentum, including in-game, plus his experience as assistant manager in L2; also someone with integrity and looking to progress his own career, not just someone who'd been around a few blocks looking for their next wage
We are were we are though. I'm expecting both IW and the board to front up at the forum, and as you say, some of the personal criticism (e.g. "word salads") aren't justified. The performances aren't good enough (Tranmere and Shrewsbury apart) that's the bottom line |
Absolutely. And although we got a result at Tranmere the performance was OK at best but Tranmere squandered a lot of chances that day with awful finishing - including their pens. Shrewsbury was also a statistical outlier for me as they didn't do their homework on the 'aggressive press and bomb the box' approach - Dale's kryptonite. I expect Latics won't make the same mistake. I'll be back for that one but I expect it will get ugly in every respect, but hope I'm wrong in every respect.
Will try to stream the forum when it's up. I hope and expect fans to question but maintain respect and stay classy |  |
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| Watson..... on 10:09 - Sep 10 with 3027 views | 49thseason |
| Watson..... on 20:36 - Sep 9 by James1980 |
Every manager in every job has a degree of inexperience, when they first take on the role [Post edited 9 Sep 21:22]
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True James, but managers also have to be leaders, they have to have the capacity to inspire their players, which is why many football managers have a decent playing record. Obviously there are exceptions but having been there and done it must be a big advantage.. |  | | |
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| Watson..... on 10:55 - Sep 10 with 2968 views | JimmyRustler |
| Watson..... on 20:00 - Sep 9 by Nerazzurri |
Regardless of what happens with Watson we should go with whoever is identified as the best candidate, not this cliched “experience” just for the sake of it. The most experienced person right now is probably Ian Henderson, he’s seen the best of Hill, BBM, McNulty & would be best placed to identify what’s currently missing rather than appointing someone “experienced” journeyman that will take time to work things out, sign a load more players & send us down. |
Absolutely not.
We need a steady hand with managerial experience at an adequate level.
Taking that sort of gamble is what has landed us in this mess in the first place |  | | |
| Watson..... on 16:09 - Sep 10 with 2687 views | 100notout |
| Watson..... on 10:55 - Sep 10 by JimmyRustler |
Absolutely not.
We need a steady hand with managerial experience at an adequate level.
Taking that sort of gamble is what has landed us in this mess in the first place |
Jim Bentley was "experienced". As was John Coleman.
Just saying like  | |
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| Watson..... on 16:37 - Sep 10 with 2630 views | JimmyRustler |
| Watson..... on 16:09 - Sep 10 by 100notout |
Jim Bentley was "experienced". As was John Coleman.
Just saying like |
They were also probably the only managers we could reasonably afford at the time.
I know you’re playing devils advocate but the circumstances are entirely different | | | |
| Watson..... on 00:58 - Sep 11 with 2347 views | Shun |
| Watson..... on 16:09 - Sep 10 by 100notout |
Jim Bentley was "experienced". As was John Coleman.
Just saying like |
John Coleman wasn’t even a bad manager. He had us skirting around the playoffs in League Two. Granted, his philosophy of snide play, diving and winking was as far away from a Rochdale philosophy as we could imagine, but results-wise he wasn’t bad at all. The only reason he was sacked is because Hill became available. |  | | |
| Watson..... on 06:55 - Sep 11 with 2203 views | isitme |
| Watson..... on 00:58 - Sep 11 by Shun |
John Coleman wasn’t even a bad manager. He had us skirting around the playoffs in League Two. Granted, his philosophy of snide play, diving and winking was as far away from a Rochdale philosophy as we could imagine, but results-wise he wasn’t bad at all. The only reason he was sacked is because Hill became available. |
Bentley was awful as was his Barrowball football and team selection. I still believe that if he had played O'Donnell, Brierley and Rodney (centrally) whenever possible that we would have stayed up.
As you said Coleman's teams are just unlikeable. |  | | |
| Watson..... on 07:16 - Sep 11 with 2180 views | EllDale |
Bentley’s football was awful as you say but he was hamstrung by two transfer windows under Stockdale and Jimmy Shan where the recruitment was horrendous.
Selling the likes of Beesley and Morley and spending money on players like Charman, Campbell and Ball for example.
And as for Rayheen Tulloch…….
I doubt if we’ll ever get the true story around the signing of Jake Eastwood and the disappearance of Brierley to Sheffield United for a period either. | | | |
| Watson..... on 09:09 - Oct 4 with 1237 views | frenzied |
How the mood has changed now…
After 3 games calls for the managers head…
Salford lost their first 3 games also..let me just check where they are now,,,,, 
Thank god for the sanity behind the scenes | | | |
| Watson..... on 09:30 - Oct 4 with 1177 views | EllDale |
Credit to IW for battling through it.
He must have been totally down after that Gillingham game. | | | |
| Watson..... on 11:25 - Oct 4 with 952 views | mikehunt |
Yes. I will admit to being one of the IW doubters. But that chaotic start, with players dropping like flies (another one, Smith, yesterday) and the headless-chicken style of football we were playing, there didn't seem to be anyway out. Similar scenarios had been witnessed in the past, most notably the Eyre-era, where things spiralled out of control, to the extent that the situation became unsalvageable by him. I wanted us to halt the perceived rot before the same happened.
Obviously, things have dramatically improved. This is largely down to Flint: no coincidence we haven't lost since his arrival. But the nag is there, as to how we would fare should he become the next "fly" to drop.
The other little worry, on a personal level, is, has our success last season made me feel, somehow, entitled? Like my resilience to failure has been chipped away a little. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, it leaves me open to greater disappointments but if we all believe we are crap, that's what we manifest.
Anyway, if you have been, thanks for reading.
UTD |  |
| The worm of time turns not for the cuckoo of circumstance. |
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| Watson..... on 14:47 - Oct 4 with 726 views | 442Dale |
| Watson..... on 11:25 - Oct 4 by mikehunt |
Yes. I will admit to being one of the IW doubters. But that chaotic start, with players dropping like flies (another one, Smith, yesterday) and the headless-chicken style of football we were playing, there didn't seem to be anyway out. Similar scenarios had been witnessed in the past, most notably the Eyre-era, where things spiralled out of control, to the extent that the situation became unsalvageable by him. I wanted us to halt the perceived rot before the same happened.
Obviously, things have dramatically improved. This is largely down to Flint: no coincidence we haven't lost since his arrival. But the nag is there, as to how we would fare should he become the next "fly" to drop.
The other little worry, on a personal level, is, has our success last season made me feel, somehow, entitled? Like my resilience to failure has been chipped away a little. Not sure if that is a good thing or a bad thing, it leaves me open to greater disappointments but if we all believe we are crap, that's what we manifest.
Anyway, if you have been, thanks for reading.
UTD |
It was a good read and your last points are very valid. There has been a level of entitlement that comes with success. It will happen at most clubs and we are no different.
It’s especially prevalent in modern football where everything can be reacted to in public in seconds, with opinions changing at the drop of a hat (or scoring of a goal).
We saw it last season too on the odd occasion we didn’t actually win a game and the whole “pub league” opinions which have proven to be unfair going off what we’ve witnessed so far this campaign.
It could be a season of mixed results will go some way to resetting the expectation levels. | |
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| Watson..... on 17:15 - Oct 4 with 529 views | D_Alien |
| Watson..... on 14:47 - Oct 4 by 442Dale |
It was a good read and your last points are very valid. There has been a level of entitlement that comes with success. It will happen at most clubs and we are no different.
It’s especially prevalent in modern football where everything can be reacted to in public in seconds, with opinions changing at the drop of a hat (or scoring of a goal).
We saw it last season too on the odd occasion we didn’t actually win a game and the whole “pub league” opinions which have proven to be unfair going off what we’ve witnessed so far this campaign.
It could be a season of mixed results will go some way to resetting the expectation levels. |
This is what i found so annoying about some of the earlier attitudes
It's as if some people have forgotten our history, after one incredible season
My point in reply to tonyroch was how much our history has been based on survival; success has been rare, a "mixed results" season is the norm. I get the whole thing around the "Steve Eyre" fear but it wasn't until further into the season than we are now it became apparent
I had my doubts about Watson, but in the context of the hand he'd been dealt. This isn't a "told you so" post, but i just wish (as you refer to with the instant reactions point) that context was more appreciated
I guess it's the whole rise of social.media, where everything happens in the moment and that's all that matters to some | |
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| Watson..... on 18:13 - Oct 4 with 400 views | 442Dale |
| Watson..... on 17:15 - Oct 4 by D_Alien |
This is what i found so annoying about some of the earlier attitudes
It's as if some people have forgotten our history, after one incredible season
My point in reply to tonyroch was how much our history has been based on survival; success has been rare, a "mixed results" season is the norm. I get the whole thing around the "Steve Eyre" fear but it wasn't until further into the season than we are now it became apparent
I had my doubts about Watson, but in the context of the hand he'd been dealt. This isn't a "told you so" post, but i just wish (as you refer to with the instant reactions point) that context was more appreciated
I guess it's the whole rise of social.media, where everything happens in the moment and that's all that matters to some |
It’s a phenomenon that’s become more obvious since Covid across the game I think. That might have something to do with watching games at home and only being able to shout about it virtually.
As we saw after a good season when we finished fourth and reached a cup semi final, the two failings (and they were definitely that, games we should have won but for mistakes made) the reactions can be extreme. Same after the odd defeat last season. Our history had been forgotten back then too.
Could be wrong, but there was a lot of reasoned arguments about Watson on here most of them focused on the need to get results despite the injuries. Most of the silly stuff happened on twitter from what I’ve seen. If we hadn’t got those results against Walsall and Oldham, things could be very different.
The big thing apart from results that needed to happen was actually being able to see what we will be as a team (as mentioned in a discussion before Fleetwood). Thats starting to happen now too. We’ve been lucky to find another manager who is committed to his plan and processes despite any noise - something he’s repeatedly said himself.
That, along with a continuation in playing style, may have been another factor that the board have deemed important as part of their recruitment process. | |
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| Watson..... on 18:35 - Oct 4 with 361 views | D_Alien |
| Watson..... on 18:13 - Oct 4 by 442Dale |
It’s a phenomenon that’s become more obvious since Covid across the game I think. That might have something to do with watching games at home and only being able to shout about it virtually.
As we saw after a good season when we finished fourth and reached a cup semi final, the two failings (and they were definitely that, games we should have won but for mistakes made) the reactions can be extreme. Same after the odd defeat last season. Our history had been forgotten back then too.
Could be wrong, but there was a lot of reasoned arguments about Watson on here most of them focused on the need to get results despite the injuries. Most of the silly stuff happened on twitter from what I’ve seen. If we hadn’t got those results against Walsall and Oldham, things could be very different.
The big thing apart from results that needed to happen was actually being able to see what we will be as a team (as mentioned in a discussion before Fleetwood). Thats starting to happen now too. We’ve been lucky to find another manager who is committed to his plan and processes despite any noise - something he’s repeatedly said himself.
That, along with a continuation in playing style, may have been another factor that the board have deemed important as part of their recruitment process. |
In saying "i had doubts about Watson" i commented (in person) to another contributor to this messageboard "If Watson loses the next two games against Walsall and Oldham, he's in trouble"
It was serious, and the way the club stage-managed the fans forum suggests they knew it was serious too, but in the sense they really didn't need the negativity after everything the owners had input
Their business was built up over decades, and no doubt they've been through many trials and tribulations to get to where they are. In appointing Watson, they were following a process that they had little alternative but to stand by, or else it'd have put their process into doubt and that'd leave them with nowhere to go
Their process, their experience is something that many commentators will have been nowhere near in their lives. The Ogdens appreciate the fans (the U Block being an example) but managing expectations of such a volatile group can't be comfortable for them, even when they appreciate the background levels of relative deprivation that exists within our home environments
Again, i just wish the fanbase itself took greater account of all this context before casting judgment
[Post edited 4 Oct 18:43]
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| Watson..... on 19:29 - Oct 4 with 282 views | 442Dale |
Their statement before the forum and also the way they continued to back McNulty when there was much consternation and criticism (both constructive and unwarranted in its ignorance of reality when casting those judgments), illustrates they have a clear set of principles that they believe brings long term success.
The problem with football is that sometimes there will be a situation where results make it almost impossible to stick to that. Thankfully we haven’t reached that stage over the last three and a bit years, despite coming close.
[Post edited 4 Oct 19:34]
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| Watson..... on 20:09 - Oct 4 with 190 views | pnc4eva1 |
With regard to Watson, although I viewed his start with scepticism, i said he should be given more time.
At the moment things appear to be turning round. However, unlike the unwashed of Bury, I would not jump the gun and state he is the new messiah.
Between 10 - 15 games is when you start to see what to expect. I am sure things will keep on moving forward as he gets more time to install his systems on his team |  |
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