| Irish General Election 15:42 - Feb 9 with 16492 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Seismic shift to the left in Ireland today.
Exit polls suggesting that left parties are heading for 45% of the vote.
So many fascinating issues arising now:
Are Sinn Féin now on a par with the right-wing monoliths of Fianna Fáil and Fine Gael?
Will either of them get into coalition-bed with Sinn Féin?
Can Sinn Féin be trusted in Government?
Have Sinn Féin left violence behind?
Will Ireland, could Ireland, actually have a Left-Wing Government in the near future?
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| Irish General Election on 09:28 - Feb 10 with 1469 views | ingeminate |
| Irish General Election on 09:06 - Feb 10 by runningman75 |
Going to be interesting when Ireland veto's any potential UK trade deal and Boris Johnson realises he has to get his head out of the sand regarding the Irish question. |
If Sinn Fein take power and so have a European veto about trade agreements with the UK there will be all sorts of ramifications. I don’t see how they could do anything other politically than hold the UK hostage over a vote for a United Ireland. |  |
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| Irish General Election on 09:28 - Feb 10 with 1469 views | WatfordR |
| Irish General Election on 09:06 - Feb 10 by runningman75 |
Going to be interesting when Ireland veto's any potential UK trade deal and Boris Johnson realises he has to get his head out of the sand regarding the Irish question. |
I shouldn't worry about that. Boris isn't remotely interested in a trade deal with the EU. Much more opportunity for him and his mates to make money out of a UK trading on WTO rules, with ever lowering standards on things like labour rights, environment, competition and so on. And he can blame it all on the EU for not being reasonable. |  | | |
| Irish General Election on 09:57 - Feb 10 with 1430 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Irish General Election on 09:28 - Feb 10 by ingeminate |
If Sinn Fein take power and so have a European veto about trade agreements with the UK there will be all sorts of ramifications. I don’t see how they could do anything other politically than hold the UK hostage over a vote for a United Ireland. |
The irony being that all the Shinners I know are Eurosceptic and want out of the EU.
Nationalist majority NI, a Shinner lead Republic, and anti UK sentiment on the whole island at it’s highest since the troubles. Never a better time for a border poll. [Post edited 10 Feb 2020 10:09]
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| Irish General Election on 10:11 - Feb 10 with 1395 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 19:00 - Feb 9 by MrSheen |
As I have been going to Ireland several times a year since about 1970, it’s based on a bit more than that. |
Please enlighten us, old colonial master on the knowledge you have gained on these frequent trips to Ireland on exactly and specifically why the uncultured barbarians in Ireland aren't competent to govern themselves ???
Racist. |  | | |
| Irish General Election on 10:13 - Feb 10 with 1393 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 23:33 - Feb 9 by robith |
That is a farcical statement |
I'd love to hear what it is based on? | | | |
| Irish General Election on 10:17 - Feb 10 with 1380 views | WatfordR |
| Irish General Election on 10:11 - Feb 10 by JimmyR |
Please enlighten us, old colonial master on the knowledge you have gained on these frequent trips to Ireland on exactly and specifically why the uncultured barbarians in Ireland aren't competent to govern themselves ???
Racist. |
I'm sure he'll answer for himself, but Mr Sheen is I think an Irish citizen. | | | |
| Irish General Election on 10:22 - Feb 10 with 1368 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 10:17 - Feb 10 by WatfordR |
I'm sure he'll answer for himself, but Mr Sheen is I think an Irish citizen. |
Must be terrified about the consequences for 'our wee country' in that case
I'm an Irish citizen | | | |
| Irish General Election on 10:25 - Feb 10 with 1363 views | stevec |
I imagine Boris is having a rethink about that bridge between Scotland and Ireland ! |  | | |
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| Irish General Election on 11:01 - Feb 10 with 1316 views | Boston |
Was under the impression SF had been anti EU and strongly opposed the Lisbon Treaty. | |
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| Irish General Election on 11:27 - Feb 10 with 1286 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Irish General Election on 11:01 - Feb 10 by Boston |
Was under the impression SF had been anti EU and strongly opposed the Lisbon Treaty. |
They opposed Lisbon and Nice, I think, but are generally pro-Europe. | |
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| Irish General Election on 11:31 - Feb 10 with 1264 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Most people who voted for Sf did so for economic reasons, according to the polls - health, housing, wages, pension age. A United Ireland, even by peaceful means, has not surfaced as even a small factor.
Brexit and Tory apathy towards reigniting the war in the North has not gone down well in Ireland at all, but this election was about the economy. | |
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| Irish General Election on 11:32 - Feb 10 with 1259 views | ElHoop |
Surely 'Ulster' was originally defined by the communities who wanted to remain British?
If the part of Ulster which wants to remain British has shrunk, why wouldn't they just redefine Ulster as an area where they still had a majority and put up the barricades and fight to protect it? It wouldn't be as if they were annexing any more territority - they'd just be retreating into a smaller space.
I don't know what would happen if there were some sort of 'unification poll' but I think that it is naive to assume that the Ulster unionist community would accept its result. We could actually end up going backwards in a bad way. Surely it could only happen voluntarily - a move coming from within the Unionist community? |  | | |
| Irish General Election on 11:32 - Feb 10 with 1261 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
Guessing you are referring to me seeing as I am the only one who brought it up. I classify myself as a leaver.
I do think you are a xenophobe but not because you voted Brexit x [Post edited 10 Feb 2020 11:33]
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| Irish General Election on 11:34 - Feb 10 with 1252 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Irish General Election on 11:32 - Feb 10 by ElHoop |
Surely 'Ulster' was originally defined by the communities who wanted to remain British?
If the part of Ulster which wants to remain British has shrunk, why wouldn't they just redefine Ulster as an area where they still had a majority and put up the barricades and fight to protect it? It wouldn't be as if they were annexing any more territority - they'd just be retreating into a smaller space.
I don't know what would happen if there were some sort of 'unification poll' but I think that it is naive to assume that the Ulster unionist community would accept its result. We could actually end up going backwards in a bad way. Surely it could only happen voluntarily - a move coming from within the Unionist community? |
It has been legislated for, Elhoop, with the process defined.
Northern Unionists would have to vote for it as part of that process. | |
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| Irish General Election on 11:59 - Feb 10 with 1192 views | ElHoop |
| Irish General Election on 11:34 - Feb 10 by BrianMcCarthy |
It has been legislated for, Elhoop, with the process defined.
Northern Unionists would have to vote for it as part of that process. |
Look I'm most definitely not an expert on either the legislation or the emotion attached to the Ulster issue. But when you see the giant barracades/walls/partitions still in existence between communities in say Belfast, how can you be sure that any 'legislated' solution would be accepted by the minority? What do you do if they violently reject it? | | | |
| Irish General Election on 12:05 - Feb 10 with 1181 views | JimmyR |
Don’t believe everything the billionaire media moguls tell you!
Brexit was a referendum on one single issue, which has been an issue ever since the EU was formed and the UK has been a member
SF are a political party that represent many different issues. I’m not really sure how you can draw a comparison between a vote on EU membership in the UK
And a political party in a completely separate country representing many issues/ideas/ideologies. As has already been pointed out the Irish election result has a lot more to do with economics than Brexit
Please do tell me — What are you worried about? | | | |
| Irish General Election on 12:23 - Feb 10 with 1151 views | BazzaInTheLoft |
| Irish General Election on 12:05 - Feb 10 by JimmyR |
Don’t believe everything the billionaire media moguls tell you!
Brexit was a referendum on one single issue, which has been an issue ever since the EU was formed and the UK has been a member
SF are a political party that represent many different issues. I’m not really sure how you can draw a comparison between a vote on EU membership in the UK
And a political party in a completely separate country representing many issues/ideas/ideologies. As has already been pointed out the Irish election result has a lot more to do with economics than Brexit
Please do tell me — What are you worried about? |
I think Clive Anderson is more offended than worried to be honest. | | | |
| Irish General Election on 12:37 - Feb 10 with 1132 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 11:32 - Feb 10 by ElHoop |
Surely 'Ulster' was originally defined by the communities who wanted to remain British?
If the part of Ulster which wants to remain British has shrunk, why wouldn't they just redefine Ulster as an area where they still had a majority and put up the barricades and fight to protect it? It wouldn't be as if they were annexing any more territority - they'd just be retreating into a smaller space.
I don't know what would happen if there were some sort of 'unification poll' but I think that it is naive to assume that the Ulster unionist community would accept its result. We could actually end up going backwards in a bad way. Surely it could only happen voluntarily - a move coming from within the Unionist community? |
No, you are incorrect.
Ulster is/has been a province of Ireland for centauries. Donegal, Monaghan and Cavan are still part of Ulster and governed by Dublin (south Ireland)
As for the Ulster unionists ‘shrinkage’ this is at least partly coming from within their own community and an increasing desire from those in NI to be defined as ‘neither’ i.e not protestant or catholic.
The DUP has done more in the past couple of years to move the conversation towards a united Ireland than SF have done in the last 20 - by being socially conservative, regressive and alienating those within their own community on issues like gay marriage and abortion. Add to this their huge desire not to any diffident at all from the UK on any thing ever (apart from: School segregation, money, employment laws, policing, subsidies, bursaries, trade, import duties, export duties, bonfires etc)
So you are quite right when you say it may happen from within the Unionist community but I wouldn’t say its being volunteered! The biggest fear is being forgotten and irrelevant.
I would say that being ‘British’ in parts ulster means bowler hats, tin whistles and setting light to pallets — which people are growing very tired off. The writing is on the wall (literally in places). | | | |
| Irish General Election on 12:37 - Feb 10 with 1131 views | BrianMcCarthy |
| Irish General Election on 11:59 - Feb 10 by ElHoop |
Look I'm most definitely not an expert on either the legislation or the emotion attached to the Ulster issue. But when you see the giant barracades/walls/partitions still in existence between communities in say Belfast, how can you be sure that any 'legislated' solution would be accepted by the minority? What do you do if they violently reject it? |
Yes, that's definitely a worry. No point saying otherwise. | |
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| Irish General Election on 12:49 - Feb 10 with 1092 views | BrianMcCarthy |
Well, thankfully Johnson sold out the Unionists and there will be no hard border. So we don't have to worry about that one.
I don't see how 25% in the South voting Sinn Féin will lead to violence in any way.
As for people blaming each other, I think we're all over that with decades. Irish people may have been worried by Tory incompetence of late but we've known since 1993 that Britain has no "selfish, strategic or economic" interest in Northern Ireland. | |
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| Irish General Election on 13:00 - Feb 10 with 1069 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 11:59 - Feb 10 by ElHoop |
Look I'm most definitely not an expert on either the legislation or the emotion attached to the Ulster issue. But when you see the giant barracades/walls/partitions still in existence between communities in say Belfast, how can you be sure that any 'legislated' solution would be accepted by the minority? What do you do if they violently reject it? |
The trouble now is who to violently reject it against? The UK government? because that has, and did happen in the 1970’s
Boris has/is cutting the Unionists adrift. The precious union has been rejected and disregarded by the UK government as it is politically inconvenient with Brexit and probably the £10bn a year NI costs the UK
If the unionists just run around and kill Catholics as is sung about on the 12th of July every year they can hardly claim to be civilised or non sectarian or committed to peace.
SF have always been against the UK government and its presence in Ireland. The army/police are a very visible target.
The unionists are against Catholics and for the UK government to continue their presence in Northern Ireland.
So violence against the UK state is likely to hasten what the unions fear the most — UK withdrawal from NI.
Whether the south would even accept 1 million new citizens with an illogical racial intolerance and a desire to burn Catholics is more of an unknown to my mind anyway. | | | |
| Irish General Election on 13:06 - Feb 10 with 1052 views | MrSheen |
| Irish General Election on 10:11 - Feb 10 by JimmyR |
Please enlighten us, old colonial master on the knowledge you have gained on these frequent trips to Ireland on exactly and specifically why the uncultured barbarians in Ireland aren't competent to govern themselves ???
Racist. |
I haven't got time to go into this today, but as Watford R mentioned, I am an Irish citizen, though born here. If it makes any difference to you, my grandfather was in the IRA and a friend of Liam Lynch. I don't think the Irish are any less capable of governing themselves than anyone else in the world. Do people make bad decisions? Look around you.
By the way, thanks for the interesting insight into how Sinn Fein supporters treat dissenting views - insults and a denial of nationality. [Post edited 10 Feb 2020 13:15]
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| Irish General Election on 13:15 - Feb 10 with 1025 views | JimmyR |
| Irish General Election on 13:06 - Feb 10 by MrSheen |
I haven't got time to go into this today, but as Watford R mentioned, I am an Irish citizen, though born here. If it makes any difference to you, my grandfather was in the IRA and a friend of Liam Lynch. I don't think the Irish are any less capable of governing themselves than anyone else in the world. Do people make bad decisions? Look around you.
By the way, thanks for the interesting insight into how Sinn Fein supporters treat dissenting views - insults and a denial of nationality. [Post edited 10 Feb 2020 13:15]
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Just asked why you have the view that SF will take power and hold on to it? It seems like a very extreme view given that Ireland have a preference vote system which generally leads to more coalitions
Also they are a member of the EU, who are not known for supporting autocratic dictatorships
You don’t have time explain or justify your comments so I’ll disregard them! As there aren’t any interesting insights
Frankly I don’t care what your nationality/sex/race/religion/musical preferences or anything else you can think, that can be used to create divisions are...
[Post edited 10 Feb 2020 13:38]
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| Irish General Election on 13:34 - Feb 10 with 1638 views | MrSheen |
| Irish General Election on 13:15 - Feb 10 by JimmyR |
Just asked why you have the view that SF will take power and hold on to it? It seems like a very extreme view given that Ireland have a preference vote system which generally leads to more coalitions
Also they are a member of the EU, who are not known for supporting autocratic dictatorships
You don’t have time explain or justify your comments so I’ll disregard them! As there aren’t any interesting insights
Frankly I don’t care what your nationality/sex/race/religion/musical preferences or anything else you can think, that can be used to create divisions are...
[Post edited 10 Feb 2020 13:38]
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Not at all. I appreciate the comment. Off next week for my Dad's 25th anniversary in Ballyporeen, luxury accommodation provided by my cousin's pub in Mitchelstown. | | | |
| Irish General Election on 13:36 - Feb 10 with 1628 views | ElHoop |
| Irish General Election on 13:00 - Feb 10 by JimmyR |
The trouble now is who to violently reject it against? The UK government? because that has, and did happen in the 1970’s
Boris has/is cutting the Unionists adrift. The precious union has been rejected and disregarded by the UK government as it is politically inconvenient with Brexit and probably the £10bn a year NI costs the UK
If the unionists just run around and kill Catholics as is sung about on the 12th of July every year they can hardly claim to be civilised or non sectarian or committed to peace.
SF have always been against the UK government and its presence in Ireland. The army/police are a very visible target.
The unionists are against Catholics and for the UK government to continue their presence in Northern Ireland.
So violence against the UK state is likely to hasten what the unions fear the most — UK withdrawal from NI.
Whether the south would even accept 1 million new citizens with an illogical racial intolerance and a desire to burn Catholics is more of an unknown to my mind anyway. |
If it was as simple as a 'UK withdrawal from NI' then it would have happened long ago. The problem is not about us withdrawing, it's about them leaving!
How many times did Gladstone try to free the whole of Ireland? From that point on, when did we ever force them to stay in the UK? It's not about violence against the UK state (of which they are a part anyway) it's about violence against being forced to do something that they don't wish to do.
Until they want to leave the UK, I don't see how they ever will, and nobody else will force the issue as it would surely be far too dangerous? | | | |
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